4.

Discussion on Abandoning

1.

Discussion on Not Bringing Discourse

279. Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger? Yes. Does he give up perpetually, give up completely, give up without reconnection, give up with the root, give up with craving, give up with underlying tendencies, give up by noble knowledge, give up by the noble path, give up while penetrating the unshakable, give up while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling suppress sensual lust and anger? Yes. Does he suppress perpetually, suppress completely, suppress without reconnection, suppress with the root, suppress with craving, suppress with underlying tendencies, suppress by noble knowledge, suppress by the noble path, suppress while penetrating the unshakable, suppress while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up sensual lust and anger, and does he give up perpetually, give up completely, etc. give up while realizing the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger, and does he give up perpetually, give up completely, etc. give up while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning suppress sensual lust and anger, and does he suppress perpetually, suppress completely, etc. suppress while realizing the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does a worldling suppress sensual lust and anger, and does he suppress perpetually, suppress completely, etc. suppress while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger, and does he not give up perpetually, not give up completely, etc. not give up while realizing the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up sensual lust and anger, and does he not give up perpetually, etc. not give up while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling suppress sensual lust and anger, and does he not suppress perpetually, not suppress completely, etc. not suppress while realizing the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning suppress sensual lust and anger, and does he not suppress perpetually, not suppress completely, etc. not suppress while realizing the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger? Yes. By which path? By the fine-material-sphere path. Is the fine-material-sphere path leading to liberation, leading to elimination, leading to enlightenment, leading to non-accumulation, without mental corruptions, not subject to mental fetters, not subject to mental knots, not subject to mental floods, not subject to mental bonds, not subject to mental hindrances, not adhered to, not subject to clinging, not defiling? That should not be said. Is not the fine-material-sphere path not leading to liberation, not leading to elimination, not leading to enlightenment, not leading to non-accumulation, with mental corruptions, subject to mental fetters, etc. defiling? Yes. If the fine-material-sphere path is not leading to liberation, not leading to elimination, etc. defiling, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "A worldling gives up sensual lust and anger by the fine-material-sphere path."

Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up sensual lust and anger by the path of non-returning, and is that path leading to liberation, leading to elimination, leading to enlightenment, leading to non-accumulation, without mental corruptions, etc. not defiling? Yes. Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger by the fine-material-sphere path, and is that path leading to liberation, leading to elimination, leading to enlightenment, leading to non-accumulation, without mental corruptions, etc. not defiling? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger by the fine-material-sphere path, and is that path not leading to liberation, not leading to elimination, not leading to enlightenment, not leading to non-accumulation, with mental corruptions, etc. defiling? Yes. Does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up sensual lust and anger by the path of non-returning, and is that path not leading to liberation, not leading to elimination, not leading to enlightenment, not leading to non-accumulation, with mental corruptions, etc. defiling? That should not be said. Etc.

280. Does a worldling without lust towards sensual pleasures, together with the full realization of the teaching, remain in the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does he remain in arahantship? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling without lust towards sensual pleasures, together with the full realization of the teaching, remain in the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Does he simultaneously develop the three paths? That should not be said. Etc.

Does he simultaneously develop the three paths? Yes. Does he simultaneously realize the three fruits of asceticism? That should not be said. Etc.

Does he simultaneously realize the three fruits of asceticism? Yes. Is there a combination of three contacts, three feelings, three perceptions, three volitions, three consciousnesses, three faiths, three energies, three mindfulnesses, three concentrations, and three wisdoms? That should not be said. Etc.

Does a worldling without lust towards sensual pleasures, together with the full realization of the teaching, remain in the fruition of non-returning? Yes. By the path of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc.

By the path of once-returning? That should not be said. By which path? By the path of non-returning. Does one give up identity view, sceptical doubt, and adherence to moral rules and austerities by the path of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

2.

Discussion on Bringing Discourse

281. Does one give up identity view, sceptical doubt, and adherence to moral rules and austerities by the path of non-returning? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One that the fruition of stream-entry is due to the abandoning of the three mental fetters? Yes. If it was said by the Blessed One that the fruition of stream-entry is due to the abandoning of the three mental fetters, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "One gives up identity view, sceptical doubt, and adherence to moral rules and austerities by the path of non-returning." Does one give up gross sensual lust and gross anger by the path of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one give up gross sensual lust and gross anger by the path of non-returning? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One that the fruition of once-returning is due to the diminution of sensual lust and anger? Yes. If it was said by the Blessed One that the fruition of once-returning is due to the diminution of sensual lust and anger, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "One gives up gross sensual lust and gross anger by the path of non-returning."

Does a worldling without lust towards sensual pleasures, together with the full realization of the teaching, remain in the fruition of non-returning? Yes. Do all those who fully realise the teaching, together with the full realization of the teaching, remain in the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it not be said - "A worldling gives up sensual lust and anger"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, a worldling gives up sensual lust and anger.

Does a worldling give up sensual lust and anger? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Yet indeed, monks, the teacher Sunetta, being so long-lived, so long-lasting, was not released from birth, from ageing, from death, from sorrows, from lamentations, from sufferings, from displeasures, from anguishes; he was not released from suffering, I say. What is the reason for this? Through not understanding, through not penetrating four things. Which four? Through not understanding, through not penetrating noble morality; through not understanding, through not penetrating noble concentration; through not understanding, through not penetrating noble wisdom; through not understanding, through not penetrating noble liberation. Monks, this noble morality has been understood and penetrated, noble concentration has been understood and penetrated, noble wisdom has been understood and penetrated, noble liberation has been understood and penetrated, craving for existence has been cut off, the conduit to existence has been eliminated, there is now no more rebirth.

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "A worldling gives up sensual lust and anger."

The Discussion on Giving Up is finished.