2.

The Second Chapter

(10) 1.

Discussion on Gifts from Others

307. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, mental fetter of sensual lust, mental flood of sensuality, mental bond of sensuality, mental hindrance of sensual desire for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, mental fetter of sensual lust, mental flood of sensuality, mental bond of sensuality, mental hindrance of sensual desire for a Worthy One? Yes. If there is not lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, mental fetter of sensual lust, mental flood of sensuality, mental bond of sensuality, mental hindrance of sensual desire for a Worthy One, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Is there emission of semen for a worldling, is there lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, mental fetter of sensual lust, mental flood of sensuality, mental bond of sensuality, mental hindrance of sensual desire for him? Yes. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One, is there lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, etc. mental hindrance of sensual desire for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One, is there not lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, etc. mental hindrance of sensual desire for him? Yes. Is there emission of semen for a worldling, is there not lust, sensual lust, prepossession by sensual lust, etc. mental hindrance of sensual desire for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. For what purpose? Well then, because deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One.

Do deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there emission of semen for deities belonging to Māra's retinue? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not emission of semen for deities belonging to Māra's retinue? Yes. If there is not emission of semen for deities belonging to Māra's retinue, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Do deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Do the deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring their own semen, emission of semen, bring others' semen, emission of semen, bring his semen, emission of semen? That should not be said. Etc.

Do the deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring neither their own nor others' nor his semen, emission of semen? Yes. If the deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring neither their own nor others' nor his semen, emission of semen, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Do deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Do they bring it through the pores? That should not be said. Etc.

308. Do deities belonging to Māra's retinue bring about emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Why? Well then, because we will cause doubt. Is there doubt for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there doubt for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there doubt about the Teacher for a Worthy One, doubt about the Teaching, doubt about the Community, doubt about the training, doubt about the past, doubt about the future, doubt about both the past and the future, doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not doubt about the Teacher for a Worthy One, doubt about the Teaching, doubt about the Community, doubt about the training, doubt about the past, doubt about the future, doubt about both the past and the future, doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. If there is not doubt about the Teacher for a Worthy One, etc. doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is doubt for a Worthy One."

Is there doubt for a worldling, is there doubt about the Teacher for him, etc. doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there doubt for a Worthy One, is there doubt about the Teacher for him, etc. doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there doubt for a Worthy One, is there not doubt about the Teacher for him, etc. doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there doubt for a worldling, is there not doubt about the Teacher for him, etc. doubt about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. The emission of semen for a Worthy One is the discharge of what? It is the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted. Is the emission of semen for a Worthy One the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted? Yes. Is there emission of semen for all those who eat, drink, chew and taste? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there emission of semen for all those who eat, drink, chew and taste? Yes. Children eat, drink, chew, and taste; is there emission of semen for children? That should not be said.

Eunuchs eat, drink, chew, and taste; is there emission of semen for eunuchs? That should not be said. Etc.

Gods eat, drink, chew, and taste; is there emission of semen for deities? That should not be said. Etc.

309. Is the emission of semen for a Worthy One the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted? Yes. Is there a dwelling place for it? That should not be said. Etc.

Faeces and urine for a Worthy One are the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted, is there a dwelling place for them? Yes. The emission of semen for a Worthy One is the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted, is there a dwelling place for it? That should not be said. Etc.

The emission of semen for a Worthy One is the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted, is there no dwelling place for it? Yes. Faeces and urine for a Worthy One are the discharge of what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted, is there no dwelling place for them? That should not be said. Etc.

310. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Would a Worthy One engage in sexual intercourse, produce offspring, dwell in the confinement of wife and children, enjoy Kāsi sandalwood, wear garlands, scents, and cosmetics, consent to gold and silver? That should not be said.

Is there emission of semen for a worldling, would a worldling engage in sexual intercourse, produce offspring, dwell in the confinement of wife and children, enjoy Kāsi sandalwood, wear garlands, scents, and cosmetics, consent to gold and silver? Yes. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One, would a Worthy One engage in sexual intercourse, produce offspring, dwell in the confinement of wife and children, enjoy Kāsi sandalwood, wear garlands, scents, and cosmetics, consent to gold and silver? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One, and would a Worthy One not engage in sexual intercourse, produce offspring, dwell in the confinement of wife and children, enjoy Kāsi sandalwood, wear garlands, scents, and cosmetics, consent to gold and silver? Yes. Is there emission of semen for a worldling, and would a worldling not engage in sexual intercourse, produce offspring, dwell in the confinement of wife and children, enjoy Kāsi sandalwood, wear garlands, scents, and cosmetics, consent to gold and silver? That should not be said.

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned... conceit has been abandoned... wrong view has been abandoned... sceptical doubt has been abandoned... sloth has been abandoned... restlessness has been abandoned... shamelessness has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One moral fearlessness has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

311. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust? Yes. If for a Worthy One the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One the establishments of mindfulness have been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the right strivings have been developed... the bases for spiritual power have been developed... the faculties have been developed... the powers have been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed? Yes. If for a Worthy One the factors of enlightenment have been developed for the abandoning of lust, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for the Worthy One, for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed? Yes. If for the Worthy One, for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the factors of enlightenment have been developed, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, one who has done what was to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own welfare, one who has completely destroyed the fetter of becoming, one completely liberated through final knowledge, one whose cross-bar has been lifted, whose moat has been filled in, whose pillar has been pulled out, who is unbolted, a noble one whose flag has fallen, whose burden has been laid down, who is unbound, who has well-conquered victory; suffering has been fully understood by him, the origin has been abandoned, cessation has been realized, the path has been developed, what should be directly known has been directly known, what should be fully understood has been fully understood, what should be abandoned has been abandoned, what should be developed has been developed, what should be realized has been realized? Yes. If a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, one who has done what was to be done, etc. what should be realized has been realized, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

312. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching there is emission of semen, for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings there is not emission of semen. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? Yes. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not emission of semen for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? Yes. Is there not emission of semen for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there emission of semen for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there no emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there no emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there no emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there no emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there no emission of semen for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, the factors of enlightenment have been developed for the abandoning of moral fearlessness; is there no emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no emission of semen for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no emission of semen for him? That should not be said. Etc.

313. Is there emission of semen for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Those monks, monks, who are worldlings accomplished in morality, mindful and fully aware when falling into sleep, for them semen is not emitted. Even those, monks, who are external sages without lust for sensual pleasures, for them too semen is not emitted. This is impossible, monks, there is no chance that a Worthy One should emit semen." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is emission of semen for a Worthy One."

Should it not be said - "there is a gift from others for a Worthy One"? Yes. Is it not that others would bring forward the requisites of robes, almsfood, lodging, and medicine for the sick for a Worthy One? Yes. If others would bring forward the requisites of robes, almsfood, lodging, and medicine for the sick for a Worthy One, then indeed sir, it should be said - "there is a gift from others for a Worthy One."

Others would bring forward the requisites of robes, almsfood, lodging, and medicine for the sick for a Worthy One, is there a gift from others for a Worthy One? Yes. Would others bring forward the fruition of stream-entry or the fruition of once-returning or the fruition of non-returning or arahantship for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Gifts from Others is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(11) 2.

The Discussion on Not Knowing

314. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Is there not ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for a Worthy One? Yes. If there is not ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for a Worthy One, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a worldling, is there ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for him? Yes. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, is there ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for him? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, is there not ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for him? Yes. Is there not knowing for a worldling, is there not ignorance, mental flood of ignorance, mental bond of ignorance, underlying tendency to ignorance, prepossession by ignorance, mental fetter of ignorance, mental hindrance of ignorance for him? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Would a Worthy One, due to not knowing, kill a living being, take what is not given, speak falsely, speak divisively, speak harshly, engage in idle chatter, break into houses, plunder, commit burglary, wait in ambush, go to another's wife, sack a village, sack a market town? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a worldling, would a worldling, due to not knowing, kill a living being, take what is not given, speak falsely, etc. sack a village, sack a market town? Yes. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, would a Worthy One, due to not knowing, kill a living being, take what is not given, etc. sack a village, sack a market town? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, and would a Worthy One not, due to not knowing, kill a living being, take what is not given, etc. sack a village, sack a market town? Yes. Is there not knowing for a worldling, and would a worldling not, due to not knowing, kill a living being, take what is not given, etc. sack a village, sack a market town? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there not knowing about the Teacher for a Worthy One, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, not knowing about the training, not knowing about the past, not knowing about the future, not knowing about both the past and the future, not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

Is there not not knowing about the Teacher for a Worthy One, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, not knowing about the training, not knowing about the past, not knowing about the future, not knowing about both the past and the future, not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. If there is not not knowing about the Teacher for a Worthy One, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, etc. not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a worldling, is there not knowing about the Teacher for him, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, etc. not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, is there not knowing about the Teacher for him, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, etc. not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One, is there not not knowing about the Teacher for him, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, etc. not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there not knowing for a worldling, is there not not knowing about the Teacher for him, not knowing about the Teaching, not knowing about the Community, etc. not knowing about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

315. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One moral fearlessness has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed? Yes. If for a Worthy One the factors of enlightenment have been developed for the abandoning of lust, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for the Worthy One, for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed? Yes. If for the Worthy One, for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the factors of enlightenment have been developed, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized? Yes. If a Worthy One is without lust, etc. what should be realized has been realized, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

316. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching there is not knowing, for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings there is not not knowing. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? Yes. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not not knowing for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? Yes. Is there not not knowing for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, the factors of enlightenment have been developed for the abandoning of lust; is there not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there not knowing for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there no not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there no not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there no not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, moral fearlessness has been abandoned; is there no not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is there no not knowing for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, the factors of enlightenment have been developed for the abandoning of moral fearlessness; is there no not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no not knowing for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no not knowing for him? That should not be said. Etc.

317. Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'Such is matter, such is the origin of matter, such is the passing away of matter; such is feeling... etc. such is perception... such are activities... such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' - Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'This is suffering' - monks, for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions; 'This is the origin of suffering' - for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions; 'This is the cessation of suffering' - for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions; 'This is the practice leading to the cessation of suffering' - for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions. Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "The all, monks, not directly knowing, not fully understanding, not becoming dispassionate towards, not abandoning, one is incapable of the destruction of suffering. But the all, monks, directly knowing, fully understanding, becoming dispassionate towards, abandoning, one is capable of the destruction of suffering"! Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Is there not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "At the time, monks, when the stainless, spotless eye of the Teaching arose in a noble disciple - 'Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation,' together with the arising of vision, monks, three mental fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple - identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

Should it not be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One"? Yes. Is it not that a Worthy One would not know the names and clans of women and men, would not know the path and the non-path, would not know the names of grass, wood, and trees? Yes. If a Worthy One would not know the names and clans of women and men, would not know the path and the non-path, would not know the names of grass, wood, and trees, then indeed sir, it should be said - "there is not knowing for a Worthy One."

A Worthy One would not know the names and clans of women and men, would not know the path and the non-path, would not know the names of grass, wood, and trees, thus there is not knowing for a Worthy One? Yes. Would a Worthy One not know the fruition of stream-entry or the fruition of once-returning or the fruition of non-returning or arahantship? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Not Knowing is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(12) 3.

The Discussion on Uncertainty

318. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for a Worthy One? Yes. If there is not sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for a Worthy One, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a worldling, is there sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for him? Yes. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One, is there sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One, is there not sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for him? Yes. Is there uncertainty for a worldling, is there not sceptical doubt, prepossession by sceptical doubt, mental fetter of sceptical doubt, mental hindrance of sceptical doubt for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there uncertainty about the Teacher for a Worthy One, uncertainty about the Teaching, uncertainty about the Community, uncertainty about the training, uncertainty about the past, uncertainty about the future, uncertainty about both the past and the future, uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

Is there not uncertainty about the Teacher for a Worthy One, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. If there is not uncertainty about the Teacher for a Worthy One, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a worldling, is there uncertainty about the Teacher for him, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One, is there uncertainty about the Teacher for him, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One, is there not uncertainty about the Teacher for him, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there uncertainty for a worldling, is there not uncertainty about the Teacher for him, uncertainty about the Teaching, etc. uncertainty about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said.

319. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed; is it not that a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized? Yes. If a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

320. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching there is uncertainty, for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings there is not uncertainty. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? Yes. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not uncertainty for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? Yes. Is there not uncertainty for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there uncertainty for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there uncertainty for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there uncertainty for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there uncertainty for him? That should not be said. Etc. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there not uncertainty for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there not uncertainty for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of delusion, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no uncertainty for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no uncertainty for him? That should not be said. Etc.

321. Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'Such is matter' etc. 'such is the passing away of consciousness' - Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'This is suffering', monks, etc. 'This is the practice leading to the cessation of suffering' - for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions. Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "The all, monks, not directly knowing, not fully understanding, not becoming dispassionate towards, not abandoning, one is incapable of the destruction of suffering; But the all, monks, directly knowing, fully understanding, becoming dispassionate towards, abandoning, one is capable of the destruction of suffering"! Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "together with his accomplishment of vision Etc. incapable of doing the six grave actions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "At the time, monks, when the stainless, spotless eye of the Teaching arose in a noble disciple - 'Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation,' together with the arising of vision, monks, three mental fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple - identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Is there uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

Should it not be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One"? Yes. Is it not that a Worthy One might be uncertain about the names and clans of women and men, might be uncertain about the path and the non-path, might be uncertain about the names of grass, wood, and trees? Yes. If a Worthy One might be uncertain about the names and clans of women and men, might be uncertain about the path and the non-path, might be uncertain about the names of grass, wood, and trees; then indeed sir, it should be said - "there is uncertainty for a Worthy One."

A Worthy One might be uncertain about the names and clans of women and men, might be uncertain about the path and the non-path, might be uncertain about the names of grass, wood, and trees, thus there is uncertainty for a Worthy One? Yes. Would a Worthy One be uncertain about the fruition of stream-entry or the fruition of once-returning or the fruition of non-returning or arahantship? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Uncertainty is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(13) 4.

The Discussion on Dependence on Others' Explanations

322. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Is a Worthy One one to be led by another, one relying on another, one dependent on another, one whose existence is bound to another, one who does not know, does not see, deluded, not fully aware? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that a Worthy One is not one to be led by another, not one relying on another, not one dependent on another, not one whose existence is bound to another, knows, sees, undeluded, fully aware? Yes. If a Worthy One is not one to be led by another, not one relying on another, not one dependent on another, not one whose existence is bound to another, knows, sees, undeluded, fully aware, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a worldling, and is he one to be led by another, one relying on another, one dependent on another, one whose existence is bound to another, one who does not know, does not see, deluded, not fully aware? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One, and is he one to be led by another, one relying on another, one dependent on another, one whose existence is bound to another, one who does not know, does not see, deluded, not fully aware? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One, and is he not one to be led by another, not one relying on another, not one dependent on another, not one whose existence is bound to another, knows, sees, undeluded, fully aware? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a worldling, and is he not one to be led by another, not one relying on another, not one dependent on another, not one whose existence is bound to another, knows, sees, undeluded, fully aware? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for a Worthy One, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, dependence on others' explanations about the Community, dependence on others' explanations about the training, dependence on others' explanations about the past, dependence on others' explanations about the future, dependence on others' explanations about both the past and the future, dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for a Worthy One, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. If there is not dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for a Worthy One, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a worldling, is there dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for him, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One, is there dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for him, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One, is there not dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for him, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a worldling, is there not dependence on others' explanations about the Teacher for him, dependence on others' explanations about the Teaching, etc. dependence on others' explanations about phenomena that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality? That should not be said. Etc.

323. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future? Yes. If for a Worthy One lust has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Is it not that for a Worthy One hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, its root cut off, made like a palm stump, brought to obliteration, subject to non-arising in the future, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. is it not that a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized? Yes. If a Worthy One is without lust, without hate, without delusion, what should be realized has been realized, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

324. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching there is dependence on others' explanations, for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings there is not dependence on others' explanations. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? Yes. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there not dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One skilled in other teachings? Yes. Is there not dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there dependence on others' explanations for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there dependence on others' explanations for him? That should not be said.

For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, hate has been abandoned, etc. delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there dependence on others' explanations for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there dependence on others' explanations for him? That should not be said. Etc.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, lust has been abandoned; is there not dependence on others' explanations for him? Yes. For a Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching, lust has been abandoned; is there not dependence on others' explanations for him? That should not be said.

For a Worthy One skilled in other teachings, hate has been abandoned, delusion has been abandoned, etc. moral fearlessness has been abandoned, etc. the path has been developed for the abandoning of lust, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. for the abandoning of hate, etc. for the abandoning of moral fearlessness, the path has been developed, etc. the factors of enlightenment have been developed, etc. A Worthy One skilled in other teachings is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no dependence on others' explanations for him? Yes. A Worthy One skilled in one's own teaching is without lust, without hate, without delusion, etc. what should be realized has been realized; is there no dependence on others' explanations for him? That should not be said. Etc.

325. Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'Such is matter' etc. 'such is the passing away of consciousness' - Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I say, monks, the elimination of mental corruptions is for one who knows, for one who sees, not for one who does not know, not for one who does not see. And what, monks, knowing what, seeing what, is there elimination of mental corruptions? 'This is suffering' - monks, for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions; 'This is the origin of suffering' etc. 'This is the cessation of suffering' etc. 'this is the practice leading to the cessation of suffering' - for one knowing, for one seeing, there is elimination of mental corruptions. Thus, monks, for one knowing thus, for one seeing thus, there is elimination of mental corruptions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "The all, monks, not directly knowing, not fully understanding, not becoming dispassionate towards, not abandoning, one is incapable of the destruction of suffering; But the all, monks, directly knowing, fully understanding, becoming dispassionate towards, abandoning, one is capable of the destruction of suffering"! Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Together with his accomplishment of vision, etc. incapable of doing the six grave actions." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "At the time, monks, when the stainless, spotless eye of the Teaching arose in a noble disciple - 'Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation,' together with the arising of vision, monks, three mental fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple - identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Is there dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Should it not be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One"? Yes. Is it not that others would explain the names and clans of women and men for a Worthy One, others would explain the path and the non-path, others would explain the names of grass, wood, and trees? Yes. If others would explain the names and clans of women and men for a Worthy One, others would explain the path and the non-path, others would explain the names of grass, wood, and trees, then indeed sir, it should be said - "there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One."

Others would explain the names and clans of women and men for a Worthy One, others would explain the path and the non-path, others would explain the names of grass, wood, and trees, thus there is dependence on others' explanations for a Worthy One? Yes. Would others explain the fruition of stream-entry or the fruition of once-returning or the fruition of non-returning or arahantship for a Worthy One? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Dependence on Others' Explanations is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(14) 5.

The Discussion on Verbal Expression

326. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for those who have attained everywhere? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for those who have attained always? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for all those who have attained? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression in all attainments? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there bodily movement for one who has attained? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there no bodily movement for one who has attained? Yes. Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained? That should not be said. Etc.

For one who has attained there is speech, is there verbal expression? Yes. For one who has attained there is body, is there bodily movement? That should not be said. Etc.

For one who has attained there is body, is there no bodily movement? Yes. For one who has attained there is speech, is there no verbal expression? That should not be said. Etc.

327. Does one knowing "suffering" speak the word "suffering"? Yes. Does one knowing "origin" speak the word "origin"? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one knowing "suffering" speak the word "suffering"? Yes. Does one knowing "cessation" speak the word "cessation"? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one knowing "suffering" speak the word "suffering"? Yes. Does one knowing "path" speak the word "path"? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one knowing "origin" not speak the word "origin"? Yes. Does one knowing "suffering" not speak the word "suffering"? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one knowing "cessation" not speak the word "cessation"? Yes. Does one knowing "suffering" not speak the word "suffering"? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one knowing "path" not speak the word "path"? Yes. Does one knowing "suffering" not speak the word "suffering"? That should not be said. Etc.

328. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. What is the object of knowledge? Knowledge has truth as its object. Does the ear have truth as its object? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. What is the object of the ear? The ear has sound as its object. Does knowledge have sound as its object? That should not be said.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained, knowledge having truth as its object, and the ear having sound as its object? Yes. If knowledge has truth as its object, and the ear has sound as its object, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained, knowledge having truth as its object, and the ear having sound as its object? Yes. Is there a combination of two contacts, two feelings, two perceptions, two volitions, and two consciousnesses? That should not be said.

329. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the earth kasiṇa attainment? That should not be said.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. The water kasiṇa, etc. The fire kasiṇa, The air kasiṇa, The blue kasiṇa, The yellow kasiṇa, The red kasiṇa, The white kasiṇa, The plane of infinite space, the plane of infinite consciousness... The plane of nothingness, etc. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the earth kasiṇa attainment? Yes. If there is no verbal expression for one who has attained the earth kasiṇa attainment, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

The water kasiṇa, The fire kasiṇa, The air kasiṇa, The blue kasiṇa, The yellow kasiṇa, The red kasiṇa, The white kasiṇa, The plane of infinite space, the plane of infinite consciousness... the plane of nothingness... Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception? Yes. If there is no verbal expression for one who has attained the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained a mundane attainment? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. The mundane second meditative absorption... the third meditative absorption... is there verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained a mundane attainment? Yes. If there is no verbal expression for one who has attained a mundane attainment, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane first meditative absorption? Yes. If there is no verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane first meditative absorption, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

The mundane second meditative absorption... the third meditative absorption... is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? Yes. If there is no verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane fourth meditative absorption, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

330. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? Yes. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? Yes. The mundane second meditative absorption... the third meditative absorption... is there verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the mundane first meditative absorption? Yes. Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

The mundane second meditative absorption... the third meditative absorption... is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? Yes. Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

331. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? Yes. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane second meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? Yes. The supramundane third meditative absorption... is there verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane second meditative absorption? Yes. Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

The supramundane second meditative absorption... the third meditative absorption... is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption? Yes. Is there no verbal expression for one who has attained the supramundane first meditative absorption? That should not be said. Etc.

332. Should it not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One that applied and sustained thought are verbal activity - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought"? Yes. If it was said by the Blessed One that applied and sustained thought are verbal activity - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," then indeed sir, it should be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Applied and sustained thought are verbal activity, it was said by the Blessed One - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," is there verbal expression for him? Yes. For one who has attained the first meditative absorption of the earth kasiṇa there is applied and sustained thought, is there verbal expression for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Applied and sustained thought are verbal activity, it was said by the Blessed One - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," is there verbal expression for him? Yes. The water kasiṇa, The fire kasiṇa, The air kasiṇa, The blue kasiṇa, The yellow kasiṇa, The red kasiṇa, for one who has attained the first meditative absorption of the white kasiṇa there is applied and sustained thought, is there verbal expression for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One that speech originates from applied thought - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought"? Yes. If it was said by the Blessed One that speech originates from applied thought - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," then indeed sir, it should be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Speech originated from applied thought was declared by the Blessed One - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," is there verbal expression for him? Yes. Speech originated from perception was declared by the Blessed One - "For one who has attained the second meditative absorption there is perception, is there applied and sustained thought for him?" That should not be said. Etc.

Speech originated from applied thought was declared by the Blessed One - "For one who has attained the first meditative absorption there is applied and sustained thought," is there verbal expression for him? Yes. Speech originated from perception was declared by the Blessed One - the third meditative absorption... etc. the fourth meditative absorption... The plane of infinite space, the plane of infinite consciousness... for one who has attained the plane of nothingness there is perception, is there applied and sustained thought for him? That should not be said. Etc.

333. Is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Is it not that "for one who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased"! Is there such a discourse? Yes. If "for one who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased," there is such a discourse, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

"For one who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased," there is such a discourse, is there verbal expression for him? Yes. "For one who has attained the second meditative absorption, applied and sustained thought have ceased," there is such a discourse, is there applied and sustained thought for him? That should not be said. Etc.

"For one who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased," there is such a discourse, is there verbal expression for him? Yes. "For one who has attained the third meditative absorption, rapture has ceased; for one who has attained the fourth meditative absorption, in-breath and out-breath have ceased; for one who has attained the plane of infinite space, perception of material form has ceased; for one who has attained the plane of infinite consciousness, perception of the plane of infinite space has ceased; for one who has attained the plane of nothingness, perception of the plane of infinite consciousness has ceased; for one who has attained the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, perception of the plane of nothingness has ceased; for one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased," there is such a discourse, is there perception and feeling for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn for the first meditative absorption? Yes. If sound was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for the first meditative absorption, then indeed sir, it should be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained."

Sound was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for the first meditative absorption, is there verbal expression for one who has attained? Yes. Applied and sustained thought were said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for the second meditative absorption... Rapture was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for the third meditative absorption... In-breath and out-breath were said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for the fourth meditative absorption... Perception of material form was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for one who has attained the plane of infinite space... Perception of the plane of infinite space was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for one who has attained the plane of infinite consciousness... Perception of the plane of infinite consciousness was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for one who has attained the plane of nothingness... Perception of the plane of nothingness was said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for one who has attained the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception... Perception and feeling were said by the Blessed One to be a thorn for one who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, is there perception and feeling for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it not be said - "There is verbal expression for one who has attained"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Ānanda, the disciple of the Blessed One Sikhī, the Worthy One, the Fully Self-Enlightened One, named Abhibhū, standing in the Brahma world, informed the ten-thousandfold world system with his voice -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, there is verbal expression for one who has attained.

The Discussion on Verbal Expression is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(15) 6.

The Discussion on Suffering as Nutriment

334. Is the nutriment of suffering a path factor, included in the path? Yes. Do all those who speak the word "suffering" develop the path? That should not be said.

Do all those who speak the word "suffering" develop the path? Yes. Do ignorant worldlings speak the word "suffering," do ignorant worldlings develop the path? That should not be said. A matricide... a patricide... a killer of a Worthy One... one who causes the blood to flow... does a schismatic speak the word "suffering," does a schismatic develop the path? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Suffering as Nutriment is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(16) 7.

The Discussion on Stability of Mind

335. Does one consciousness last for a day? Yes. Is half a day the moment of arising, half a day the moment of fall? That should not be said.

Does one consciousness last for two days? Yes. Is a day the moment of arising, a day the moment of fall? That should not be said.

One consciousness lasts for four days... lasts for eight days... lasts for ten days... lasts for twenty days... lasts for a month... lasts for two months... lasts for four months... lasts for eight months... lasts for ten months... lasts for a year... lasts for two years... lasts for four years... lasts for eight years... lasts for ten years... lasts for twenty years... lasts for thirty years... lasts for forty years... lasts for fifty years... lasts for a hundred years... lasts for two hundred years... lasts for four hundred years... lasts for five hundred years... lasts for a thousand years... lasts for two thousand years... lasts for four thousand years... lasts for eight thousand years... lasts for sixteen thousand years... lasts for a cosmic cycle... lasts for two cosmic cycles... lasts for four cosmic cycles... lasts for eight cosmic cycles... lasts for sixteen cosmic cycles... lasts for thirty-two cosmic cycles... lasts for sixty-four cosmic cycles... lasts for five hundred cosmic cycles... lasts for a thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for two thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for four thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for eight thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for sixteen thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for twenty thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for forty thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for sixty thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for eighty-four thousand cosmic cycles? Yes. Is forty-two thousand cosmic cycles the moment of arising, forty-two thousand cosmic cycles the moment of fall? That should not be said.

Does one consciousness last for a day? Yes. Are there other phenomena that arise and cease many times in one day? Yes. Are those phenomena more quickly changing than consciousness? That should not be said.

Are those phenomena more quickly changing than consciousness? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "I do not, monks, perceive any other single phenomenon that is thus quickly changing as this, the mind. To such an extent, monks, even a simile is not easy to make for how quickly changing the mind is." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "those phenomena are more quickly changing than consciousness."

Are those phenomena more quickly changing than consciousness? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Just as, monks, a monkey roaming through the forest wilds seizes a branch, and having released that, seizes another, and having released that, seizes another; just so, monks, that which is called mind, or mentality, or consciousness - by night and by day one thing arises and another ceases." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "those phenomena are more quickly changing than consciousness."

336. Does one consciousness last for a day? Yes. Does eye-consciousness remain for a day? That should not be said. Ear-consciousness... etc. nose-consciousness... tongue-consciousness... body-consciousness... unwholesome consciousness... accompanied by lust... accompanied by hate... accompanied by delusion... accompanied by conceit... accompanied by wrong view... accompanied by sceptical doubt... accompanied by sloth... accompanied by restlessness... accompanied by shamelessness... does consciousness accompanied by moral fearlessness remain for a day? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one consciousness last for a day? Yes. By whatever consciousness one sees form with the eye, by that very consciousness one hears sound with the ear... etc. smells odour with the nose... tastes flavour with the tongue... touches tangible object with the body... cognizes mental phenomena with the mind... etc. by whatever consciousness one cognizes mental phenomena with the mind, by that very consciousness one sees form with the eye... etc. hears sound with the ear... smells odour with the nose... tastes flavour with the tongue... etc. touches tangible object with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one consciousness last for a day? Yes. By whatever consciousness one goes forward, by that very consciousness one goes back; by whatever consciousness one goes back, by that very consciousness one goes forward; by whatever consciousness one looks before, by that very consciousness one looks around; by whatever consciousness one looks around, by that very consciousness one looks before; by whatever consciousness one bends, by that very consciousness one stretches; by whatever consciousness one stretches, by that very consciousness one bends? That should not be said. Etc.

337. Does one consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space remain as long as life lasts? Yes. Does one consciousness of human beings remain as long as life lasts? That should not be said.

Does one consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space remain as long as life lasts? Yes. Of the gods ruled by the four great kings... etc. the Thirty-three gods... the Yāma gods... the Tusita gods... the gods who delight in creation... the gods who control what is created by others... the Brahmā's retinue gods... the Brahmā's ministers gods... the Great Brahmā gods... the gods of limited radiance... the gods of immeasurable radiance... the radiant gods... the gods of limited glory... the gods of immeasurable glory... the gods of streaming glory... the gods of great fruit... the Aviha gods... the Atappa gods... the Sudassa gods... the Sudassī gods... does one consciousness of the Akaniṭṭha gods remain as long as life lasts? That should not be said.

The life-span of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space is twenty thousand cosmic cycles; does one consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space remain for twenty thousand cosmic cycles? Yes. The life-span of human beings is a hundred years; does one consciousness of human beings remain for a hundred years? That should not be said.

The life-span of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space is twenty thousand cosmic cycles; does one consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space remain for twenty thousand cosmic cycles? Yes. The life-span of the gods ruled by the four great kings is five hundred years; does one consciousness of the gods ruled by the four great kings last for five hundred years... lasts for a thousand years... lasts for two thousand years... lasts for four thousand years... lasts for eight thousand years... lasts for sixteen thousand years... lasts for a third of a cosmic cycle... lasts for half a cosmic cycle... lasts for one cosmic cycle... lasts for two cosmic cycles... lasts for four cosmic cycles... lasts for eight cosmic cycles... lasts for sixteen cosmic cycles... lasts for thirty-two cosmic cycles... lasts for sixty-four cosmic cycles... lasts for five hundred cosmic cycles... lasts for a thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for two thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for four thousand cosmic cycles... lasts for eight thousand cosmic cycles... The life-span of the Akaniṭṭha gods is sixteen thousand cosmic cycles; does one consciousness of the Akaniṭṭha gods last for sixteen thousand cosmic cycles? That should not be said.

Does the consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space arise moment by moment and cease moment by moment? Yes. Do the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space pass away moment by moment and arise moment by moment? That should not be said.

Does one consciousness of the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space remain as long as life lasts? Yes. Do the gods who have reached the plane of infinite space pass away with the very same consciousness with which they arise? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Stability of Mind is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(17) 8.

The Discussion on Hot Ashes

338. Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Is there not pleasant feeling, bodily happiness, mental happiness, divine happiness, human happiness, happiness of material gain, happiness of honour, happiness of vehicles, happiness of beds, happiness of sovereignty, happiness of lordship, happiness of householders, happiness of asceticism, happiness with mental corruptions, happiness without mental corruptions, happiness of clinging, happiness without clinging, carnal happiness, spiritual happiness, happiness with rapture, happiness without rapture, happiness of meditative absorption, bliss of liberation, sensual happiness, happiness of renunciation, happiness of seclusion, happiness of peace, happiness of highest enlightenment? Yes. If there is pleasant feeling, etc. happiness of highest enlightenment, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Are all activities unpleasant feeling, bodily pain, mental pain, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, displeasure and anguish? That should not be said.

Should it not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "All, monks, is blazing! And what, monks, is the all that is blazing? The eye, monks, is blazing, forms are blazing, eye-consciousness is blazing, eye-contact is blazing; whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition - whether pleasant or unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant - that too is blazing. Blazing with what? 'Blazing with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion, blazing with birth, with ageing, with death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with sufferings, with displeasures, with anguishes,' I say. The ear is blazing, sounds are blazing, etc. The nose is blazing, odours are blazing, etc. The tongue is blazing, flavours are blazing, etc. The body is blazing, tangible objects are blazing, etc. The mind is blazing, mental phenomena are blazing, mind-consciousness is blazing, mind-contact is blazing; whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant - that too is blazing. Blazing with what? 'Blazing with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion, blazing with birth, with ageing, with death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with sufferings, with displeasures, with anguishes,' I say." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "There are, monks, these five types of sensual pleasure! Which five? Forms cognizable by eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, enticing, connected with sensuality, arousing; sounds cognizable by ear... etc. odours cognizable by nose... flavours cognizable by tongue... Tangible objects cognizable by body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, enticing, connected with sensuality, arousing. These, monks, are the five types of sensual pleasure." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Should it not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "It is a gain for you, monks, it is well gained for you, monks, the moment has been attained by you for abiding by the holy life! I have seen, monks, hells named 'of the six sense bases of contact.' There, whatever form one sees with the eye, one sees only undesirable form, not desirable form; one sees only unpleasant form, not pleasant form; one sees only disagreeable form, not agreeable form. Whatever sound one hears with the ear, etc. smells odour with the nose... tastes flavour with the tongue... touches tangible object with the body... cognizes mental phenomena with the mind, one cognizes only undesirable form, not desirable form; one cognizes only unpleasant form, not pleasant form; one cognizes only disagreeable form, not agreeable form." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "It is a gain for you, monks, it is well gained for you, monks, the moment has been attained by you for abiding by the holy life! I have seen, monks, heavens named 'of the six sense bases of contact.' There, whatever form one sees with the eye, one sees only desirable form, not undesirable form, one sees only pleasant form, not unpleasant form, one sees only agreeable form, not disagreeable form. Whatever sound one hears with the ear, etc. smells odour with the nose... tastes flavour with the tongue... touches tangible object with the body... cognizes mental phenomena with the mind, one cognizes only desirable form, not undesirable form, one cognizes only pleasant form, not unpleasant form, one cognizes only agreeable form, not disagreeable form." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Should it not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One, "What is impermanent, that is suffering," "All activities are impermanent"? Yes. If it was said by the Blessed One, "What is impermanent, that is suffering," "All activities are impermanent," then indeed sir, it should be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Is giving having undesirable result, having unpleasant result, having undelightful result, having incomplete and undelicious result, with painful consequences, resulting in pain? That should not be said.

Morality, etc. Observance, etc. meditation, etc. Is the holy life having undesirable result, having unpleasant result, having undelightful result, having incomplete and undelicious result, with painful consequences, resulting in pain? That should not be said.

Is not giving having desirable result, having pleasing result, having delightful result, having full and delicious result, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness? Yes. If giving has desirable result, has pleasing result, has delightful result, has full and delicious result, yields happiness, results in happiness, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Is not morality... the Observance... meditation... the holy life having desirable result, having pleasing result, having delightful result, having full and delicious result, yielding happiness, resulting in happiness? Yes. If the holy life has desirable result, has pleasing result, has delightful result, has full and delicious result, yields happiness, results in happiness, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

Are all activities, having made no limit, hot ashes? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "All activities, having made no limit, are hot ashes."

The Discussion on Hot Ashes is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(18) 9.

The Discussion on Gradual Full Realization

339. Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Does one gradually develop the path of stream-entry? That should not be said. Does one gradually develop the path of stream-entry? Yes. Does one gradually realize the fruition of stream-entry? That should not be said.

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Does one gradually develop the path of once-returning? That should not be said. Does one gradually develop the path of once-returning? Yes. Does one gradually realize the fruition of once-returning? That should not be said.

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Does one gradually develop the path of non-returning? That should not be said. Does one gradually develop the path of non-returning? Yes. Does one gradually realize the fruition of non-returning? That should not be said.

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Does one gradually develop the path of arahantship? That should not be said. Does one gradually develop the path of arahantship? Yes. Does one gradually realize the fruition of arahantship? That should not be said.

340. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a stream-enterer, in a quarter portion not a stream-enterer, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of stream-entry, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion one with seven rebirths at the utmost, a family-to-family goer, one who has sown the seed of rebirth one last time, endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha, in the Teaching... etc. towards the Community, etc. endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in a quarter portion not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said.

By the insight into origin... etc. By the insight into cessation... etc. What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a stream-enterer, in a quarter portion not a stream-enterer, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of stream-entry, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion one with seven rebirths at the utmost, a family-to-family goer, one who has sown the seed of rebirth one last time, endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha, in the Teaching... etc. towards the Community, etc. endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in a quarter portion not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said. Etc.

341. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of once-returning give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up gross sensual lust, gross anger, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a once-returner, in a quarter portion not a once-returner, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc. By the insight into origin... etc. By the insight into cessation... etc. What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up gross sensual lust, gross anger, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a once-returner, in a quarter portion not a once-returner, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

342. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up subtle sensual lust, subtle anger, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a non-returner, in a quarter portion not a non-returner, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of non-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion an attainer of final nibbāna in the interval... etc. an attainer of final nibbāna after the interval... an attainer of final nibbāna without exertion... an attainer of final nibbāna through exertion... an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in a quarter portion not an upstream-goer not towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

By the insight into origin... etc. By the insight into cessation... etc. What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up subtle sensual lust, subtle anger, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a non-returner, in a quarter portion not a non-returner, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of non-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion an attainer of final nibbāna in the interval... etc. an attainer of final nibbāna after the interval... an attainer of final nibbāna without exertion... an attainer of final nibbāna through exertion... an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in a quarter portion not an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

343. What does a person practising for the realisation of arahantship give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up lust for fine-material existence, lust for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a Worthy One, in a quarter portion not a Worthy One, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized arahantship, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion without lust, etc. without hate... without delusion, etc. one who has done what was to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own welfare, one who has completely destroyed the fetter of becoming, one completely liberated through final knowledge, one whose cross-bar has been lifted, whose moat has been filled in, whose pillar has been pulled out, who is unbolted, a noble one whose flag has fallen, whose burden has been laid down, who is unbound, who has well-conquered victory; suffering has been fully understood by him, the origin has been abandoned, cessation has been realized, the path has been developed, what should be directly known has been directly known, what should be fully understood has been fully understood, what should be abandoned has been abandoned, what should be developed has been developed, etc. what should be realized has been realized, in a quarter portion what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

By the insight into origin... by the insight into cessation... What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up lust for fine-material existence, lust for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements in a quarter portion. Is one in a quarter portion a Worthy One, in a quarter portion not a Worthy One, in a quarter portion one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized arahantship, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in a quarter portion does not dwell having touched with the body, in a quarter portion without lust... without hate... without delusion... one who has done what was to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own welfare, one who has completely destroyed the fetter of becoming, one completely liberated through final knowledge, one whose cross-bar has been lifted, whose moat has been filled in, whose pillar has been pulled out, who is unbolted, a noble one whose flag has fallen, whose burden has been laid down, who is unbound, who has well-conquered victory; suffering has been fully understood by him, the origin has been abandoned, cessation has been realized, the path has been developed, what should be directly known has been directly known, what should be fully understood has been fully understood, what should be abandoned has been abandoned, what should be developed has been developed, etc. what should be realized has been realized, in a quarter portion what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

344. Should it be said that a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry is a practitioner while seeing suffering? Yes. Should it be said that when suffering is seen, one is established in the fruit? That should not be said. While seeing origin, etc. Should it be said that while seeing cessation, one is a practitioner? Yes. Should it be said that when cessation is seen, one is established in the fruit? That should not be said.

Should it be said that a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry is a practitioner while seeing the path, and when the path is seen, one is established in the fruit? Yes. Should it be said that while seeing suffering, one is a practitioner, and when suffering is seen, one is established in the fruit? That should not be said. Etc. Should it be said that while seeing the path, one is a practitioner, and when the path is seen, one is established in the fruit? Yes. While seeing origin, etc. Should it be said that while seeing cessation, one is a practitioner, and when cessation is seen, one is established in the fruit? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it be said that a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry is a practitioner while seeing suffering, and when suffering is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? Yes. Should it be said that while seeing the path, one is a practitioner, and when the path is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? That should not be said. Etc. While seeing origin... Should it be said that while seeing cessation, one is a practitioner, and when cessation is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? Yes. Should it be said that while seeing the path, one is "a practitioner", and when the path is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it be said that a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry is a practitioner while seeing suffering, and when suffering is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? Yes. Is the seeing of suffering purposeless? That should not be said. Etc. seeing origin, etc. Should it be said that while seeing cessation, one is a practitioner, and when cessation is seen, it should not be said - "one is established in the fruit"? Yes. Is the seeing of cessation purposeless? That should not be said. Etc.

345. When suffering is seen, are the four truths seen? Yes. Is the truth of suffering the four truths? That should not be said. Etc.

When the aggregate of material body is seen as impermanent, are the five aggregates seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the aggregate of material body the five aggregates? That should not be said. Etc.

When the eye sense base is seen as impermanent, are the twelve sense bases seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye sense base the twelve sense bases? That should not be said. Etc.

When the eye-element is seen as impermanent, are the eighteen elements seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye-element the eighteen elements? That should not be said. Etc.

When the eye-faculty is seen as impermanent, are the twenty-two faculties seen as impermanent? Yes. Is the eye-faculty the twenty-two faculties? That should not be said. Etc.

Does one realize the fruition of stream-entry by four knowledges? Yes. Are there four fruitions of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc. Does one realize the fruition of stream-entry by eight knowledges? Yes. Are there eight fruitions of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc. Does one realize the fruition of stream-entry by twelve knowledges? Yes. Are there twelve fruitions of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc. Does one realize the fruition of stream-entry by forty-four knowledges? Yes. Are there forty-four fruitions of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc. Does one realize the fruition of stream-entry by seventy-seven knowledges? Yes. Are there seventy-seven fruitions of stream-entry? That should not be said. Etc.

346. Should it not be said - "there is gradual full realization"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Just as, monks, the great ocean is progressively slanting, progressively sloping, progressively inclining, not abruptly precipitous; just so, monks, in this Teaching and discipline there is gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice, not a sudden penetration of final knowledge." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, there is gradual full realization.

Should it not be said - "there is gradual full realization"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, there is gradual full realization.

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Did not the Venerable Gavampati say this to the elder monks - "Face to face with the Blessed One I heard this, friends, face to face I received it - 'Whoever, monks, sees suffering, he also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the practice leading to the cessation of suffering; Whoever sees the origin of suffering, he also sees suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the practice leading to the cessation of suffering; Whoever sees the cessation of suffering, he also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the practice leading to the cessation of suffering; Whoever sees the practice leading to the cessation of suffering, he also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering.'" Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is gradual full realization".

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is gradual full realization".

Is there gradual full realization? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "At the time, monks, when the stainless, spotless eye of the Teaching arose in a noble disciple - 'Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation,' together with the arising of vision, monks, three mental fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple - identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "there is gradual full realization".

The Discussion on Gradual Full Realization is finished.

2.

The Second Chapter

(19) 10.

The Discussion on Conventional Expression

347. Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Does it strike against the supramundane ear, not the mundane; do they recognise it by supramundane consciousness, not by mundane; do disciples recognise it, not worldlings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression strikes against the mundane ear? Yes. If the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression strikes against the mundane ear, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

Is it not that they recognise the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression by mundane consciousness? Yes. If they recognise the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression by mundane consciousness, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

Is it not that worldlings recognise the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression? Yes. If worldlings recognise the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

348. Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Is the path, the fruit, Nibbāna, the path of stream-entry, the fruition of stream-entry, the path of once-returning, the fruition of once-returning, the path of non-returning, the fruition of non-returning, the path of arahantship, the fruition of arahantship, the establishment of mindfulness, the right striving, the basis for spiritual power, the faculty, the power, the factor of enlightenment? That should not be said. Etc.

Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Are there any who hear the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression? Yes. Is a supramundane state cognizable by ear, does it strike against the ear, does it come into the range of the ear? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that a supramundane state is not cognizable by ear, does not strike against the ear, does not come into the range of the ear? Yes. If a supramundane state is not cognizable by ear, does not strike against the ear, does not come into the range of the ear, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

349. Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Are there any who would become lustful towards the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression? Yes. Is a supramundane state a basis for lust, enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding, infatuating? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that a supramundane state is not a basis for lust, not enticing, not desirable, not intoxicating, not binding, not infatuating? Yes. If a supramundane state is not a basis for lust, not enticing, not desirable, not intoxicating, not binding, not infatuating, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Are there any who would become hateful towards the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression? Yes. Is a supramundane state a basis for hate, a basis for irritation, a basis for aversion? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that a supramundane state is not a basis for hate, not a basis for irritation, not a basis for aversion? Yes. If a supramundane state is not a basis for hate, not a basis for irritation, not a basis for aversion, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Are there any who would become deluded towards the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression? Yes. Is a supramundane state a basis for delusion, causing not knowing, causing lack of vision, obstructing wisdom, connected with vexation, not leading to Nibbāna? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that a supramundane state is not a basis for delusion, not causing not knowing, not causing lack of vision, increasing wisdom, not connected with vexation, leading to Nibbāna? Yes. If a supramundane state is not a basis for delusion, not causing not knowing, not causing lack of vision, increasing wisdom, not connected with vexation, leading to Nibbāna, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is supramundane."

350. Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression supramundane? Yes. Do all those who hear the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression develop the path? That should not be said. Etc.

Do all those who hear the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression develop the path? Yes. Do ignorant worldlings hear the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression, do ignorant worldlings develop the path? That should not be said. Etc. does a matricide develop the path... etc. a patricide... a killer of a Worthy One... one who causes the blood to flow... does a schismatic hear the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression, does a schismatic develop the path? That should not be said. Etc.

351. Is it possible to indicate both a heap of grain and a heap of gold with a golden staff? Yes. Just so the Blessed One expresses both mundane and supramundane teaching by supramundane conventional expression.

Is it possible to indicate both a heap of grain and a heap of gold with a castor-oil plant staff? Yes. Just so the Blessed One expresses both mundane and supramundane teaching by mundane conventional expression.

352. Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression mundane when expressing the mundane, and supramundane when expressing the supramundane? Yes. When expressing the mundane, does it strike against the mundane ear; when expressing the supramundane, does it strike against the supramundane ear; when expressing the mundane, do they recognise it by mundane consciousness; when expressing the supramundane, do they recognise it by supramundane consciousness; when expressing the mundane, do worldlings recognise it; when expressing the supramundane, do disciples recognise it? That should not be said. Etc.

Should it not be said - "Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression mundane when expressing the mundane, and supramundane when expressing the supramundane?" Yes. Does not the Blessed One express both mundane and supramundane teaching? Yes. If the Blessed One expresses both mundane and supramundane teaching, then indeed sir, it should be said - "The Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression is mundane when expressing the mundane, and supramundane when expressing the supramundane."

Is the Buddha, the Blessed One's conventional expression mundane when expressing the mundane, and supramundane when expressing the supramundane? Yes. When expressing the path, does it become the path; when expressing the non-path, does it become the non-path; when expressing fruit, does it become fruit; when expressing non-fruit, does it become non-fruit; when expressing Nibbāna, does it become Nibbāna; when expressing non-Nibbāna, does it become non-Nibbāna; when expressing the conditioned, does it become conditioned; when expressing the unconditioned, does it become unconditioned; when expressing matter, does it become matter; when expressing the immaterial, does it become immaterial; when expressing feeling, does it become feeling; when expressing non-feeling, does it become non-feeling; when expressing perception, does it become perception; when expressing non-perception, does it become non-perception; when expressing activities, do they become activities; when expressing non-activities, do they become non-activities; when expressing consciousness, does it become consciousness; when expressing non-consciousness, does it become non-consciousness? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on Conventional Expression is concluded.

2.

The Second Chapter

(20) 11.

The Discussion on Cessation

353. Are there two cessations? Yes. Are there two cessations of suffering? That should not be said. Etc. Are there two cessations of suffering? Yes. Are there two truths of cessation? That should not be said. Etc. Are there two truths of cessation? Yes. Are there two truths of suffering? That should not be said. Etc. Are there two truths of cessation? Yes. Are there two truths of origin? That should not be said. Etc. Are there two truths of cessation? Yes. Are there two truths of path? That should not be said. Etc.

Are there two truths of cessation? Yes. Are there two shelters? Etc. Are there two rock cells? Are there two refuges? Are there two ultimate goals? Are there two imperishable states? Are there two deathless states? Are there two Nibbānas? That should not be said. Etc.

Are there two Nibbānas? Yes. Is there highness and lowness, inferiority and superiority, excellence and deficiency, boundary or division or line or interval between the two Nibbānas? That should not be said. Etc.

Are there two cessations? Yes. Surely by reflection they bring about cessation of activities that have ceased without reflection? Yes. If by reflection they bring about cessation of activities that have ceased without reflection, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "there are two cessations."

Should it not be said - "there are two cessations"? Yes. Surely activities that have ceased without reflection are absolutely destroyed, and activities that have ceased with reflection are absolutely destroyed? Yes. If activities that have ceased without reflection are absolutely destroyed, and activities that have ceased with reflection are absolutely destroyed, then indeed sir, it should be said - "there are two cessations."

Are there two cessations? Yes. Have activities that have ceased with reflection ceased by having come to the noble path? Yes. Have activities that have ceased without reflection ceased by having come to the noble path? That should not be said. Etc.

Are there two cessations? Yes. Do activities that have ceased with reflection not arise again? Yes. Do activities that have ceased without reflection not arise again? That should not be said. Etc. If so, it should not be said - "there are two cessations."

The Discussion on Cessation is concluded.

The Second Chapter.

Its summary: