4.
The Discourse on Those of Other Sects
24.
He was dwelling at Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove.
Then the Venerable Sāriputta, having dressed in the earlier period of the day, taking his bowl and robe, entered Rājagaha for almsfood.
Then this occurred to the Venerable Sāriputta:
"It is still very early to walk for almsfood in Rājagaha.
What if I were to approach the park of the heterodox wandering ascetics?"
Then the Venerable Sāriputta approached the park of the heterodox wandering ascetics; having approached, he exchanged friendly greetings with those heterodox wandering ascetics. Having concluded the pleasant and memorable talk, he sat down to one side. To the Venerable Sāriputta seated to one side, those heterodox wandering ascetics said this:
"There are, friend Sāriputta, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be self-made. There are also, friend Sāriputta, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be made by another. There are, friend Sāriputta, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be both self-made and made by another. There are also, friend Sāriputta, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen. Now, friend Sāriputta, what does the ascetic Gotama assert here, what does he proclaim? And how, answering, would we be ones who speak what has been said by the ascetic Gotama, and would not misrepresent the ascetic Gotama with what is untrue, and would explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and no reasonable counter-argument would come to a blameworthy position?"
"Suffering has been declared by the Blessed One to be dependently arisen, friend. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' Thus speaking, one would be one who speaks what has been said by the Blessed One, and would not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is untrue, and would explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and no reasonable counter-argument would come to a blameworthy position.
"Therein, friend, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be self-made, that too is conditioned by contact. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be made by another, that too is conditioned by contact. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be both self-made and made by another, that too is conditioned by contact. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that too is conditioned by contact.
"Therein, friend, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be self-made, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be made by another, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be both self-made and made by another, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible. And those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible."
The Venerable Ānanda heard this friendly conversation of the Venerable Sāriputta with those heterodox wandering ascetics. Then the Venerable Ānanda, having walked for almsfood in Rājagaha, after the meal, having returned from his alms round, approached the Blessed One; having approached, he paid respect to the Blessed One and sat down to one side. Seated to one side, the Venerable Ānanda reported to the Blessed One all the friendly conversation that the Venerable Sāriputta had with those heterodox wandering ascetics.
"Good, good, Ānanda, as Sāriputta answering rightly would answer. Suffering, Ānanda, has been declared by me to be dependently arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' Thus speaking, one would be one who speaks what has been said by me, and would not misrepresent me with what is untrue, and would explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and no reasonable counter-argument would come to a blameworthy position.
"Therein, Ānanda, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be self-made, that too is conditioned by contact. And those who... etc. and those who... etc. and those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that too is conditioned by contact.
"Therein, Ānanda, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be self-made, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible. And those who... etc. and those who... etc. and those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible.
"On one occasion, Ānanda, I was dwelling right here at Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Ground. Then, Ānanda, having dressed in the earlier period of the day, taking my bowl and robe, I entered Rājagaha for almsfood. This occurred to me, Ānanda - 'It is still very early to walk for almsfood in Rājagaha. What if I were to approach the park of the heterodox wandering ascetics?'
"Then, Ānanda, I approached the park of the heterodox wandering ascetics; having approached, I exchanged friendly greetings with those heterodox wandering ascetics. Having concluded the pleasant and memorable talk, I sat down to one side. To me seated to one side, Ānanda, those heterodox wandering ascetics said this -
'There are, friend Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be self-made. And there are, friend Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be made by another. There are, friend Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be both self-made and made by another. And there are, friend Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen. Here, what does the venerable Gotama assert, what does he proclaim? And how answering would we be ones who speak what has been said by the venerable Gotama, and would not misrepresent the venerable Gotama with what is untrue, and would explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and no reasonable counter-argument would come to a blameworthy position?'
"When this was said, Ānanda, I said this to those heterodox wandering ascetics - 'Suffering, friends, has been declared by me to be dependently arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' Thus speaking, one would be one who speaks what has been said by me, and would not misrepresent me with what is untrue, and would explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and no reasonable counter-argument would come to a blameworthy position.'
"Therein, friend, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be self-made, that too is conditioned by contact. And those who... etc. and those who... etc. and those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that too is conditioned by contact.
"Therein, friend, as to those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of kamma and declare suffering to be self-made, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible. And those who... etc. and those who... etc. and those ascetics and brahmins who hold the view of the efficacy of karma and declare suffering to be neither self-made nor made by another but fortuitously arisen, that they should experience this without contact - this is impossible." "Wonderful, venerable sir, marvellous, venerable sir! For indeed the entire meaning will have been spoken in a single phrase. Could this same meaning, venerable sir, when spoken in detail, be both profound and profound in appearance?"
"Well then, Ānanda, let that occur to you here." "If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus - 'Friend Ānanda, ageing and death, what is their source, what is their origin, what gives birth to them, what is their production?' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus - 'Friend, ageing and death have birth as their source, birth as their origin, birth gives birth to them, birth is their production.' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus.
"If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus - 'But friend Ānanda, birth, what is its source, what is its origin, what gives birth to it, what is its production?' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus - 'Friend, birth has existence as its source, existence as its origin, existence gives birth to it, existence is its production.' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus.
"If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus - 'But friend Ānanda, existence, what is its source, what is its origin, what gives birth to it, what is its production?' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus - 'Friend, existence has clinging as its source, clinging as its origin, clinging gives birth to it, clinging is its production.' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus.
"If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus - 'But friend, clinging, etc. 'But friend, craving, etc. 'But friend, feeling, etc. If, venerable sir, they were to ask me thus - 'But friend Ānanda, contact, what is its source, what is its origin, what gives birth to it, what is its production?' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus - 'Friend, contact has the six sense bases as its source, the six sense bases as its origin, the six sense bases give birth to it, the six sense bases are its production.' 'But, friend, from the complete fading away and cessation of the six sense bases of contact comes the cessation of contact; from the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling; from the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving; from the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging; from the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of existence; from the cessation of existence comes the cessation of birth; from the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and anguish cease. Thus is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.' Thus asked, venerable sir, I would answer thus." The fourth.