9.
The Discourse at the Debating Hall
418.
Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One;
having approached, he exchanged friendly greetings with the Blessed One.
Having concluded the pleasant and memorable talk, he sat down to one side.
Seated to one side, the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said this to the Blessed One -
"Some days ago, Master Gotama, earlier than that, when many ascetics and brahmins of various sects, wandering ascetics, were sitting together assembled in the debating hall, this discussion arose - 'This Pūraṇa Kassapa has a following, has a group, is a teacher of a group, is well-known, famous, a founder of a sect, highly honoured by many people. He too declares the rebirths of a disciple who has passed away and died - 'Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there.' Whoever is his disciple, the highest person, the supreme person, one who has attained the supreme attainment - that disciple too who has passed away and died, he declares regarding rebirths - "Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there."'
"This Makkhali Gosāla too... etc. this Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta too... etc. this Sañcaya Belaṭṭhaputta too... etc. this Pakudha Kaccāna too... etc. this Ajita Kesakambala too has a following, has a group, is a teacher of a group, is well-known, famous, a founder of a sect, highly honoured by many people. He too declares the rebirths of a disciple who has passed away and died - 'Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there.' Whoever is his disciple, the highest person, the supreme person, one who has attained the supreme attainment - that disciple too who has passed away and died, he declares regarding rebirths - "Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there."'
"This ascetic Gotama too has a following, has a group, is a teacher of a group, is well-known, famous, a founder of a sect, highly honoured by many people. He too declares the rebirths of a disciple who has passed away and died - 'Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there.' But whoever is his disciple, the highest person, the supreme person, one who has attained the supreme attainment - that disciple who has passed away and died, he does not declare regarding rebirths - 'Such a one has been reborn there, such a one has been reborn there.' But rather he declares thus - "He has cut off craving, turned back the mental fetters, through the complete full realisation of conceit he has made an end of suffering."' Then, Master Gotama, there was indeed uncertainty in me, there was sceptical doubt - 'How indeed is the teaching of the ascetic Gotama to be directly known?'"
"Indeed it is enough for you to be uncertain, Vaccha, enough to have sceptical doubt. Sceptical doubt has arisen in you in a matter that should be doubted. I declare rebirth, Vaccha, for one with clinging, not for one without clinging. Just as, Vaccha, fire burns with fuel, not without fuel; so too, Vaccha, I declare rebirth for one with clinging, not for one without clinging."
"At the time, Master Gotama, when a flame thrown by the wind goes even far, what clinging does Master Gotama declare for this?" "At the time, Vaccha, when a flame thrown by the wind goes even far, I declare that to be wind-clinging. For wind, Vaccha, at that time is the clinging." "But at the time, Master Gotama, when one lays down this body, and a being has not yet arisen in another body, what clinging does Master Gotama declare for this?" "At the time, Vaccha, when one lays down this body, and a being has not yet arisen in another body, I call that craving-clinging. For craving, Vaccha, at that time is the clinging." The ninth.