3.

Discussion on Holy Life

1.

Discussion on the Pure Holy Life

269. There is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Are all gods stupid, idiots, unintelligent, ones who speak with hand gestures, not competent to understand the meaning of what is well spoken and ill spoken, are all gods not devoted to the Buddha, not devoted to the Teaching, not devoted to the Community, do they not attend upon the Buddha, the Blessed One, do they not ask questions of the Buddha, the Blessed One, are they not delighted when questions are answered by the Buddha, the Blessed One, are all gods possessed of obstruction by kamma, possessed of obstruction by mental defilements, possessed of obstruction by kamma results, faithless, without desire, lacking wisdom, incapable of entering upon the fixed course, the right path, in wholesome mental states, are all gods matricides, patricides, killers of arahants, shedders of blood, schismatics, are all gods killers of living beings, takers of what is not given, those who engage in sexual misconduct, liars, speakers of divisive speech, speakers of harsh speech, idle chatterers, covetous, with minds of ill-will, holders of wrong views? That should not be said. Etc.

Is it not that there are gods who are not stupid, not idiots, intelligent, not ones who speak with hand gestures, competent to understand the meaning of what is well spoken and ill spoken, there are gods devoted to the Buddha, devoted to the Teaching, devoted to the Community, who attend upon the Buddha, the Blessed One, who ask questions of the Buddha, the Blessed One, who are delighted when questions are answered by the Buddha, the Blessed One, there are gods not possessed of obstruction by kamma, not possessed of obstruction by mental defilements, not possessed of obstruction by kamma results, with faith, with desire, wise, capable of entering upon the fixed course, the right path, in wholesome mental states, there are gods who are not matricides, not patricides, not killers of arahants, not shedders of blood, not schismatics, there are gods who are not killers of living beings, not takers of what is not given, not those who engage in sexual misconduct, not liars, not speakers of divisive speech, not speakers of harsh speech, not idle chatterers, not covetous, with minds without ill-will, holders of right views? Yes.

If there are gods who are not stupid, not idiots, intelligent, not ones who speak with hand gestures, competent to understand the meaning of what is well spoken and ill spoken, etc. there are gods devoted to the Buddha, etc. holders of right views, then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is no abiding by the holy life among the gods."

270. Is there abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Is there going forth, shaven-headedness, wearing of the orange robe, carrying of the bowl there, do Fully Self-Enlightened Ones arise among the gods, do Individually Self-awakened Ones arise, does a pair of disciples arise? That should not be said. Etc.

There is no going forth among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where there is going forth, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no going forth, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where there is going forth, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no going forth, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. Whoever goes forth, only for him is there abiding by the holy life, whoever does not go forth, there is no abiding by the holy life for him? That should not be said. Etc.

There is no shaven-headedness among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where there is shaven-headedness, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no shaven-headedness, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where there is shaven-headedness, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no shaven-headedness, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. Whoever is shaven, only for him is there abiding by the holy life, whoever is not shaven, there is no abiding by the holy life for him? That should not be said. Etc.

There is no wearing of the orange robe among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where there is wearing of the orange robe, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no wearing of the orange robe, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where there is wearing of the orange robe, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no wearing of the orange robe, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. Whoever wears the orange robe, only for him is there abiding by the holy life, whoever does not wear the orange robe, there is no abiding by the holy life for him? That should not be said. Etc.

There is no carrying of the bowl among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where there is carrying of the bowl, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no carrying of the bowl, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where there is carrying of the bowl, only there is abiding by the holy life, where there is no carrying of the bowl, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. Whoever carries the bowl, only for him is there abiding by the holy life, whoever does not carry the bowl, there is no abiding by the holy life for him? That should not be said. Etc.

Fully Self-Enlightened Ones do not arise among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where Fully Self-Enlightened Ones arise, only there is abiding by the holy life; where Fully Self-Enlightened Ones do not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where Fully Self-Enlightened Ones arise, only there is abiding by the holy life; where Fully Self-Enlightened Ones do not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. The Blessed One was born in Lumbinī, fully awakened at the foot of the Bodhi tree, the wheel of the Teaching was set in motion by the Blessed One at Bārāṇasī; Only there is abiding by the holy life, there is no abiding by the holy life elsewhere? That should not be said. Etc.

Individually Self-awakened Ones do not arise among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where Individually Self-awakened Ones arise, only there is abiding by the holy life; where Individually Self-awakened Ones do not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where Individually Self-awakened Ones arise, only there is abiding by the holy life; where Individually Self-awakened Ones do not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. Individually Self-awakened Ones arise in the middle countries, only there is abiding by the holy life, there is no abiding by the holy life elsewhere? That should not be said. Etc.

A pair of disciples does not arise among the gods, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Where a pair of disciples arises, only there is abiding by the holy life; where a pair of disciples does not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? That should not be said. Etc. Where a pair of disciples arises, only there is abiding by the holy life; where a pair of disciples does not arise, there is no abiding by the holy life there? Yes. A pair of disciples arose in Magadha, only there is abiding by the holy life, there is no abiding by the holy life elsewhere? That should not be said. Etc.

271. Is there abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life among all the gods? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there abiding by the holy life among human beings? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life among all human beings? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life among the non-percipient being gods? That should not be said. Etc.

Is there abiding by the holy life among human beings? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life in the border districts among barbarians who do not understand, where there is no access for monks, nuns, male lay followers, and female lay followers? That should not be said.

Is there abiding by the holy life among the gods? There is where there is, there is where there is not. Among the non-percipient being gods there is where there is, there is where there is not abiding by the holy life, among the percipient being gods there is where there is, there is where there is not abiding by the holy life? That should not be said.

Among the gods there is where there is, there is where there is not abiding by the holy life? Yes. Where is there, where is there not? Among the non-percipient being gods there is no abiding by the holy life, among the percipient being gods there is abiding by the holy life. Among the non-percipient being gods there is no abiding by the holy life? Yes. Among the percipient being gods there is no abiding by the holy life? That should not be said.

Among the percipient being gods there is abiding by the holy life? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life among the non-percipient being gods? That should not be said.

Is there abiding by the holy life among human beings? There is where there is, there is where there is not. In the border districts is there where there is, is there where there is not abiding by the holy life among barbarians who do not understand, where there is no access for monks, nuns, male lay followers, and female lay followers, in the middle countries is there where there is, is there where there is not abiding by the holy life? That should not be said.

Among human beings is there where there is, is there where there is not abiding by the holy life? Yes. Where is there, where is there not? In the border districts there is no abiding by the holy life among barbarians who do not understand, where there is no access for monks, nuns, male lay followers, and female lay followers, in the middle countries there is abiding by the holy life. In the border districts there is no abiding by the holy life among barbarians who do not understand, where there is no access for monks, nuns, male lay followers, and female lay followers? Yes. In the middle countries there is no abiding by the holy life? That should not be said.

In the middle countries there is abiding by the holy life? Yes. Is there abiding by the holy life in the border districts among barbarians who do not understand, where there is no access for monks, nuns, male lay followers, and female lay followers? That should not be said.

Is there abiding by the holy life among the gods? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "Monks, by three states the human beings of the Indian subcontinent surpass both the human beings of Uttarakuru and the gods of the Thirty-three. With which three? They are courageous, mindful, and here is the abiding by the holy life." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, there is no abiding by the holy life among the gods.

At Sāvatthī it was said by the Blessed One - "Here is the abiding by the holy life"? Yes. Only at Sāvatthī is there abiding by the holy life, there is no abiding by the holy life elsewhere? That should not be said.

272. For a non-returner person, the five lower mental fetters are abandoned, the five higher mental fetters are not abandoned; having passed away from here and been reborn there, where is the acquisition of fruition? Right there. If for a non-returner person, the five lower mental fetters are abandoned, the five higher mental fetters are not abandoned, having passed away from here and been reborn there, there is the acquisition of fruition; then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is no abiding by the holy life among the gods."

For a non-returner person, the five lower mental fetters are abandoned, the five higher mental fetters are not abandoned; having passed away from here and been reborn there, where is the laying down of burden, where is suffering fully understood, where is the abandoning of mental defilements, where is the realization of cessation, where is the unshakeable penetration? Right there. If for a non-returner person, the five lower mental fetters are abandoned, the five higher mental fetters are not abandoned, having passed away from here and been reborn there, there is the unshakeable penetration; then indeed sir, it should not be said - "There is no abiding by the holy life among the gods."

For a non-returner person, the five lower mental fetters are abandoned, the five higher mental fetters are not abandoned; having passed away from here and been reborn there, there is the acquisition of fruition, there is the laying down of burden, there is suffering fully understood, there is the abandoning of mental defilements, there is the realization of cessation, there is the unshakeable penetration; in what sense do you say - "There is no abiding by the holy life among the gods"? Well then, because a non-returner person realizes the fruit there by means of the path developed here.

2.

Discussion on the Holy Life by Comparison

273. Does a non-returner person realize the fruit there by means of the path developed here? Yes. Does a stream-enterer person realize the fruit here by means of the path developed there? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person realize the fruit there by means of the path developed here? Yes. Does a once-returner person who attains final nibbāna here realize the fruit here by means of the path developed there? That should not be said.

Does a stream-enterer person realize the fruit here by means of the path developed here? Yes. Does a non-returner person realize the fruit there by means of the path developed there? That should not be said.

Does a once-returner person who attains final nibbāna here realize the fruit here by means of the path developed here? Yes. Does a non-returner person realize the fruit there by means of the path developed there? That should not be said. Etc.

For a person whose goal is having left here, is the path developed, and are mental defilements not abandoned? Yes. For a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry, is the path developed, and are mental defilements not abandoned? That should not be said. Etc.

For a person whose goal is having left here, is the path developed, and are mental defilements not abandoned? Yes. For a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of once-returning, etc. For a person practising for the realisation of arahantship, is the path developed, and are mental defilements not abandoned? That should not be said. Etc.

For a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry, simultaneously, is the path developed, and are mental defilements abandoned? Yes. For a person whose goal is having left here, simultaneously, is the path developed, and are mental defilements abandoned? That should not be said.

For a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of once-returning, etc. For a person practicing for the realisation of arahantship, simultaneously, is the path developed and are mental defilements abandoned? Yes. For a person whose goal is having left here, simultaneously, is the path developed, and are mental defilements abandoned? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person who has done what was to be done, who has developed through development, is reborn there? Yes. Is a Worthy One reborn? That should not be said.

Is a Worthy One reborn? Yes. Is there rebirth for a Worthy One? That should not be said.

Is there rebirth for a Worthy One? Yes. Does a Worthy One go from existence to existence, from destination to destination, from wandering in the round of rebirths to wandering in the round of rebirths, from rebirth to rebirth? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person who has done what was to be done, who has developed through development, whose burden has not been laid down, is reborn there? Yes. Does he again develop the path for the laying down of the burden? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person who has done what was to be done, who has developed through development, whose suffering has not been fully understood, whose mental defilements have not been abandoned, whose cessation has not been realized, whose unshakeable has not been penetrated, is reborn there? Yes. Does he again develop the path for the unshakeable penetration? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person who has done what was to be done, who has developed through development, whose burden has not been laid down, is reborn there, and does he not again develop the path for the laying down of the burden? Yes. And does he attain final nibbāna there with the burden not laid down? That should not be said.

Does a non-returner person who has done what was to be done, who has developed through development, whose suffering has not been fully understood, whose mental defilements have not been abandoned, whose cessation has not been realized, whose unshakeable has not been penetrated, is reborn there, and does he not again develop the path for the unshakeable penetration? Yes. And does he attain final nibbāna there with the unshakeable not penetrated? That should not be said. Just as a deer pierced by a dart, having gone even far, dies, just so a non-returner person realizes the fruit there by means of the path developed here.

Just as a deer pierced by a dart, having gone even far, dies with the dart still in it, so too does a non-returner person attain final nibbāna there with the dart still in it by means of the path developed here? That should not be said. Etc.

The Discussion on the Holy Life is finished.

3.

Discussion on Limitedly

274. Does one give up mental defilements limitedly by limit? Yes. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of stream-entry give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a stream-enterer, in part not a stream-enterer, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of stream-entry, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part one with seven rebirths at the utmost, a family-to-family goer, one who has sown the seed of rebirth one last time, endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha, in the Teaching... etc. towards the Community, etc. endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in part not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into origin? One gives up identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a stream-enterer, in part not a stream-enterer... etc. in part endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in part not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into cessation? One gives up sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a stream-enterer, in part not a stream-enterer... etc. in part endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in part not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up adherence to moral rules and austerities and co-existent mental defilements. Is one in part a stream-enterer, in part not a stream-enterer, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of stream-entry, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part one with seven rebirths at the utmost, a family-to-family goer, one who has sown the seed of rebirth one last time, endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha, in the Teaching... etc. towards the Community, etc. endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones, in part not endowed with morality pleasing to the noble ones? That should not be said. Etc.

275. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of once-returning give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up gross sensual lust, gross anger, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a once-returner, in part not a once-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into origin? One gives up gross sensual lust, gross anger, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a once-returner, in part not a once-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into cessation? One gives up gross anger and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a once-returner, in part not a once-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up gross anger and co-existent mental defilements. Is one in part a once-returner, in part not a once-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of once-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body? That should not be said. Etc.

276. What does a person practising for the realisation of the fruition of non-returning give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up subtle sensual lust, subtle anger, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a non-returner, in part not a non-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of non-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part an attainer of final nibbāna in the interval, an attainer of final nibbāna after the interval, an attainer of final nibbāna without exertion, an attainer of final nibbāna through exertion, an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in part not an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into origin? One gives up subtle sensual lust, subtle anger, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a non-returner, in part not a non-returner... etc. in part an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in part not an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into cessation? One gives up subtle anger and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a non-returner, in part not a non-returner... etc. in part an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in part not an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up co-existent mental defilements. Is one in part a non-returner, in part not a non-returner, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized the fruition of non-returning, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part an attainer of final nibbāna in the interval, an attainer of final nibbāna after the interval, an attainer of final nibbāna without exertion, an attainer of final nibbāna through exertion, an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha, in part not an upstream-goer towards the divine world Akaniṭṭha? That should not be said. Etc.

277. What does a person practising for the realisation of arahantship give up by the insight into suffering? One gives up lust for fine-material existence, lust for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a Worthy One, in part not a Worthy One, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized arahantship, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part without lust, without hate, without delusion, one who has done what was to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own welfare, one who has completely destroyed the fetter of becoming, one completely liberated through final knowledge, one whose cross-bar has been lifted, whose moat has been filled in, whose pillar has been pulled out, who is unbolted, a noble one whose flag has fallen, whose burden has been laid down, who is unbound, who has well-conquered victory; suffering has been fully understood by him, the origin has been abandoned, cessation has been realized, the path has been developed, what should be directly known has been directly known, what should be fully understood has been fully understood, what should be abandoned has been abandoned, what should be developed has been developed, what should be realized has been realized, (in part what should be realized has been realized,) in part what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into origin? One gives up lust for fine-material existence, lust for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a Worthy One, in part not a Worthy One... etc. in part what should be realized has been realized, in part what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into cessation? One gives up conceit, restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements in part. Is one in part a Worthy One, in part not a Worthy One... etc. in part what should be realized has been realized, in part what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

What does one give up by the insight into the path? One gives up restlessness, ignorance, and co-existent mental defilements. Is one in part a Worthy One, in part not a Worthy One, in part one who has attained, obtained, achieved, realized arahantship, enters and dwells, dwells having touched with the body, in part does not dwell having touched with the body, in part without lust, without hate, without delusion, one who has done what was to be done, one who has laid down the burden, one who has attained his own welfare, one who has completely destroyed the fetter of becoming, one completely liberated through final knowledge, one whose cross-bar has been lifted, whose moat has been filled in, whose pillar has been pulled out, who is unbolted, a noble one whose flag has fallen, whose burden has been laid down, who is unbound, who has well-conquered victory; suffering has been fully understood by him, the origin has been abandoned, cessation has been realized, the path has been developed, what should be directly known has been directly known, what should be fully understood has been fully understood, what should be abandoned has been abandoned, what should be developed has been developed, what should be realized has been realized, in part what should be realized has been realized, in part what should be realized has not been realized? That should not be said. Etc.

278. Should it not be said - "One gives up mental defilements limitedly by limit"? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "One gives up mental defilements limitedly by limit."

Does one give up mental defilements limitedly by limit? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One -

Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "One gives up mental defilements limitedly by limit."

Does one give up mental defilements limitedly by limit? Yes. Was it not said by the Blessed One - "At the time, monks, when the stainless, spotless eye of the Teaching arose in a noble disciple - 'Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation,' together with the arising of vision, monks, three mental fetters are abandoned by the noble disciple - identity view, sceptical doubt, adherence to moral rules and austerities." Is there such a discourse? Yes. If so, it should not be said - "One gives up mental defilements limitedly by limit."

The Discussion on Limitedly is finished.