8.

The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar

The Story of the Naked Ascetic Kassapa

381. Thus have I heard - On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Uruññā in the deer park at Kaṇṇakatthala. Then the naked ascetic Kassapa approached the Blessed One; having approached, he exchanged friendly greetings with the Blessed One. Having concluded the pleasant and memorable talk, he stood to one side. Standing to one side, the naked ascetic Kassapa said this to the Blessed One - "I have heard this, Master Gotama - 'The ascetic Gotama censures all austere asceticism, he absolutely reproaches and blames every austere ascetic who leads a miserable life.' Those who said this, Master Gotama - 'The ascetic Gotama censures all austere asceticism, he absolutely reproaches and blames every austere ascetic who leads a miserable life' - are they speaking what has been said by Master Gotama, and do they not misrepresent Master Gotama with what is untrue, and do they explain what is in conformity with the Teaching, and does no reasonable counter-argument come to a blameworthy position? For we do not wish to misrepresent Master Gotama."

382. "Those, Kassapa, who said thus - 'The ascetic Gotama censures all austere asceticism, he absolutely reproaches and blames every austere ascetic who leads a miserable life' - they are not speaking what has been said by me, and they misrepresent me with what is untrue and not factual. Here, Kassapa, I see with the divine eye, which is pure and surpasses the human, a certain austere ascetic who leads a miserable life, upon the body's collapse at death, arisen in a realm of misery, an unfortunate realm, a nether world, in hell. But here, Kassapa, I see with the divine eye, which is pure and surpasses the human, a certain austere ascetic who leads a miserable life, upon the body's collapse at death, arisen in a fortunate realm, in a heavenly world.

383. "Here, Kassapa, I see with the divine eye, which is pure and surpasses the human, a certain austere ascetic who lives with little suffering, upon the body's collapse at death, arisen in a realm of misery, an unfortunate realm, a nether world, in hell. But here, Kassapa, I see with the divine eye, which is pure and surpasses the human, a certain austere ascetic who lives with little suffering, upon the body's collapse at death, arisen in a fortunate realm, in a heavenly world. Since I, Kassapa, understand as they really are the coming and going, the passing away and rebirth of these austere ascetics, why should I censure all austere asceticism, or absolutely reproach and blame every austere ascetic who leads a miserable life?

384. "There are, Kassapa, some ascetics and brahmins who are wise, subtle, experienced in controversy, who go about like hair-splitters. They wander about, methinks, demolishing wrong views with their wisdom. With them too I agree on some points, and on some points I do not agree. What they say is good in some cases, we too say is good in those cases. What they say is not good in some cases, we too say is not good in those cases. What they say is good in some cases, we say is not good in those cases. What they say is not good in some cases, we say is good in those cases.

"What we say is good in some cases, others too say is good in those cases. What we say is not good in some cases, others too say is not good in those cases. What we say is not good in some cases, others say is good in those cases. What we say is good in some cases, others say is not good in those cases.

Discussion on Cross-Examination

385. "Having approached them, I speak thus - 'On those points where we do not agree, friends, let those points stand. On those points where we agree, there let the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, compare teacher with teacher, community with community - "Which of these venerable ones' mental states are unwholesome and reckoned as unwholesome, blameworthy and reckoned as blameworthy, not to be cultivated and reckoned as not to be cultivated, not befitting the noble ones and reckoned as not befitting the noble ones, dark and reckoned as dark. Who lives having completely abandoned these mental states, the ascetic Gotama or the other venerable teachers of groups?"'

386. "Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would speak thus - "Which of these venerable ones' mental states are unwholesome and reckoned as unwholesome, blameworthy and reckoned as blameworthy, not to be cultivated and reckoned as not to be cultivated, not befitting the noble ones and reckoned as not befitting the noble ones, dark and reckoned as dark. The ascetic Gotama lives having completely abandoned these mental states, or else the other venerable teachers of groups?' Thus, Kassapa, the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would for the most part praise us in this matter.

387. "Furthermore, Kassapa, there is a case where the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, compare teacher with teacher, community with community - 'Which of these venerable ones' mental states are wholesome and reckoned as wholesome, blameless and reckoned as blameless, to be cultivated and reckoned as to be cultivated, befitting the noble ones and reckoned as befitting the noble ones, bright and reckoned as bright. Who lives having completely accepted these mental states, the ascetic Gotama or the other venerable teachers of groups?'

388. "Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would speak thus - 'Which of these venerable ones' mental states are wholesome and reckoned as wholesome, blameless and reckoned as blameless, to be cultivated and reckoned as to be cultivated, befitting the noble ones and reckoned as befitting the noble ones, bright and reckoned as bright. The ascetic Gotama lives having completely accepted these mental states, or else the other venerable teachers of groups?' Thus, Kassapa, the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would for the most part praise us in this matter.

389. "Furthermore, Kassapa, there is a case where the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, compare teacher with teacher, community with community - "Which of these venerable ones' mental states are unwholesome and reckoned as unwholesome, blameworthy and reckoned as blameworthy, not to be cultivated and reckoned as not to be cultivated, not befitting the noble ones and reckoned as not befitting the noble ones, dark and reckoned as dark. Who lives having completely abandoned these mental states, the Community of the disciples of Gotama or the other venerable communities of disciples of teachers of groups?'

390. "Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would speak thus - "Which of these venerable ones' mental states are unwholesome and reckoned as unwholesome, blameworthy and reckoned as blameworthy, not to be cultivated and reckoned as not to be cultivated, not befitting the noble ones and reckoned as not befitting the noble ones, dark and reckoned as dark. The Community of the disciples of Gotama lives having completely abandoned these mental states, or else the other venerable communities of disciples of teachers of groups?' Thus, Kassapa, the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would for the most part praise us in this matter.

391. "Furthermore, Kassapa, there is a case where the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, compare teacher with teacher, community with community - 'Which of these venerable ones' mental states are wholesome and reckoned as wholesome, blameless and reckoned as blameless, to be cultivated and reckoned as to be cultivated, befitting the noble ones and reckoned as befitting the noble ones, bright and reckoned as bright. Who lives having completely accepted these mental states, the Community of the disciples of Gotama or the other venerable communities of disciples of teachers of groups?'

392. "Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would speak thus - 'Which of these venerable ones' mental states are wholesome and reckoned as wholesome, blameless and reckoned as blameless, to be cultivated and reckoned as to be cultivated, befitting the noble ones and reckoned as befitting the noble ones, bright and reckoned as bright. The Community of the disciples of Gotama lives having completely accepted these mental states, or else the other venerable communities of disciples of teachers of groups?' Thus, Kassapa, the wise, cross-questioning, probing, and admonishing, would for the most part praise us in this matter.

The Noble Eightfold Path

393. "There is, Kassapa, a path, there is a practice, practicing which one will know for oneself, will see for oneself: 'The ascetic Gotama speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is beneficial, speaks on the Teaching, speaks on the discipline.' And what, Kassapa, is that path, what is that practice, practicing which one will know for oneself, will see for oneself: 'The ascetic Gotama speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is beneficial, speaks on the Teaching, speaks on the discipline'? It is just this noble eightfold path. That is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This, Kassapa, is the path, this is the practice, practicing which one will know for oneself, will see for oneself: 'The ascetic Gotama speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is beneficial, speaks on the Teaching, speaks on the discipline.'"

Discussion on Austere Practices

394. When this was said, the naked ascetic Kassapa said this to the Blessed One - "These too, friend Gotama, are the austere practices of those ascetics and brahmins that are reckoned as asceticism and reckoned as committed to holy life. He is a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking his hands, not one who comes when asked 'Come, venerable sir,' not one who stops when asked 'Stop, venerable sir,' he does not accept food brought to him, nor food specially prepared for him, nor an invitation. He does not accept food from the mouth of a pot, nor from the mouth of a bowl, nor across a threshold, nor across a stick, nor across a pestle, nor from two eating together, nor from a pregnant woman, nor from a nursing woman, nor from a woman who has gone among men, nor from where food has been collected, nor where a dog is standing by, nor where flies are swarming, nor fish, nor meat, nor liquor, nor fermented drink, nor rice-water does he drink. He is a one-house man taking one morsel, or a two-house man taking two morsels, etc. or a seven-house man taking seven morsels; he sustains himself with one small dish of food, he sustains himself with two small dishes of food, he sustains himself with seven small dishes of food; he takes food once a day, he takes food once every two days, he takes food once every seven days. Thus he dwells devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month.

395. "These too, friend Gotama, are the austere practices of those ascetics and brahmins that are reckoned as asceticism and reckoned as committed to holy life. He is one who feeds on vegetables, or one who feeds on millet, or one who feeds on wild rice, or one who feeds on leather scraps, or one who feeds on moss, or one who feeds on rice bran, or one who feeds on rice scum, or one who feeds on sesame flour, or one who feeds on grass, or one who feeds on cow dung, or he sustains himself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits.

396. "These too, friend Gotama, are the austere practices of those ascetics and brahmins that are reckoned as asceticism and reckoned as committed to holy life. He wears hempen garments, he wears mixed garments, he wears shroud-cloth, he wears rag-robes, he wears bark-cloth, he wears cheetah hide, he wears a cloak of cheetah hide, he wears kusa-grass garments, he wears bark garments, he wears wood-shaving garments, he wears a blanket of human hair, he wears a blanket of horse-tail hair, he wears owl-feather garments, he is one who plucks out hair and beard being devoted to the practice of plucking out hair and beard, he is one who stands upright having rejected seats, he is one who squats being devoted to the striving of squatting, he is one who lies on thorns making his sleeping place on a bed of thorns, he makes his sleeping place on a plank, he makes his sleeping place on bare ground, he is one who lies on one side being a wearer of dust and dirt, he is one who lives in the open air accepting whatever seat is offered, he is one who eats filth being devoted to the practice of eating filth, he is one who abstains from drinking being devoted to abstaining from drinking, he dwells devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening."

Discussion on the Uselessness of Austere Practices

397. "Even if, Kassapa, one is a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking his hands... etc... thus he dwells devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month. For him this accomplishment in morality, accomplishment in mind, and accomplishment in wisdom is not developed, not realized. Then he is far from asceticism, far from committed to holy life. When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one is a vegetable-eater, a millet-eater... etc... he sustains himself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits. For him this accomplishment in morality, accomplishment in mind, and accomplishment in wisdom is not developed, not realized. Then he is far from asceticism, far from committed to holy life. When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one wears hempen garments, wears mixed garments... etc... he dwells devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening. For him this accomplishment in morality, accomplishment in mind, and accomplishment in wisdom is not developed, not realized. Then he is far from asceticism, far from committed to holy life. When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin."

398. When this was said, the naked ascetic Kassapa said this to the Blessed One - "Asceticism is difficult to do, Master Gotama, being committed to holy life is difficult to do." "This is the common saying, Kassapa, in the world: 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.' Even if, Kassapa, one is a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking his hands... etc... thus he dwells devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life were difficult to do, very difficult to do, it would not be proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.'

"And it would have been possible to do this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'Come, let me be a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking my hands... etc... thus I will dwell devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life is difficult to do, very difficult to do, therefore it is proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one is a vegetable-eater, a millet-eater... etc... he sustains himself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life were difficult to do, very difficult to do, it would not be proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.'

"And it would have been possible to do this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'Come, let me be a vegetable-eater or a millet-eater... etc... I will sustain myself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life is difficult to do, very difficult to do, therefore it is proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one wears hempen garments, wears mixed garments... etc... he dwells devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life were difficult to do, very difficult to do, it would not be proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.'

"And it would have been possible to do this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'Come, let me wear hempen garments, wear mixed garments... etc... I will dwell devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, asceticism or being committed to holy life is difficult to do, very difficult to do, therefore it is proper to say - 'Asceticism is difficult to do, being committed to holy life is difficult to do.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin."

399. When this was said, the naked ascetic Kassapa said this to the Blessed One - "An ascetic is difficult to know, Master Gotama, a brahmin is difficult to know." "This is the common saying, Kassapa, in the world: 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.' Even if, Kassapa, one is a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking his hands... etc... thus he dwells devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin were difficult to know, very difficult to know, it would not be proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.'

"And it would have been possible to know this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'This one is a naked ascetic, of loose habits, licking his hands... etc... thus he dwells devoted to the practice of eating food in rotation even up to half a month.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin is difficult to know, very difficult to know, therefore it is proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one is a vegetable-eater, a millet-eater... etc... he sustains himself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin were difficult to know, very difficult to know, it would not be proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.'

"And it would have been possible to know this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'This one is a vegetable-eater or a millet-eater... etc... he sustains himself on forest roots and fruits, feeding on fallen fruits.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin is difficult to know, very difficult to know, therefore it is proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin.

"Even if, Kassapa, one wears hempen garments, wears mixed garments... etc... he dwells devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening. And if, Kassapa, by this measure, by this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin were difficult to know, very difficult to know, it would not be proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.'

"And it would have been possible to know this by a householder or a householder's son or even by a slave girl who brings water - 'This one wears hempen garments, wears mixed garments... etc... he dwells devoted to the practice of going down into the water three times including the evening.'

"But because, Kassapa, apart from this measure, apart from this undertaking of austere asceticism, an ascetic or a brahmin is difficult to know, very difficult to know, therefore it is proper to say - 'An ascetic is difficult to know, a brahmin is difficult to know.' When, Kassapa, a monk develops a mind of friendliness, free from enmity, free from ill-will, and with the elimination of the mental corruptions, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, dwells in the liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom that are without mental corruptions. This, Kassapa, is called a monk who is an ascetic and also a brahmin."

Accomplishment in Morality, Concentration and Wisdom

400. When this was said, the naked ascetic Kassapa said this to the Blessed One - "But what, Master Gotama, is that accomplishment in morality, what is that accomplishment in mind, and what is that accomplishment in wisdom?" "Here, Kassapa, a Tathāgata arises in the world, a Worthy One, a Fully Self-Enlightened One... etc. seeing danger in the slightest faults, having accepted the training rules he trains in them, endowed with wholesome bodily action and verbal action, of pure livelihood, accomplished in morality, with guarded doors in the sense faculties, endowed with mindfulness and full awareness, content.

401. "And how, Kassapa, is a monk accomplished in morality? Here, Kassapa, a monk, having abandoned the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings; with rod laid down, with knife laid down, conscientious, compassionate, he dwells concerned for the welfare of all living beings. This too is his accomplishment in morality,,, etc.

While some ascetics and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, maintain their life by wrong livelihood through such base arts as these: That is: pacification rites, vow-fulfilling rites... etc. releasing bound medicines - he abstains from such base arts and wrong livelihood. This too is his accomplishment in morality.

"That monk, Kassapa, thus accomplished in morality, sees no fear from any quarter, that is to say, from moral restraint. Just as, Kassapa, a king of the warrior caste, anointed on the head, having destroyed his enemies, sees no fear from any quarter, that is to say, from adversaries. Even so, Kassapa, a monk thus accomplished in morality sees no fear from any quarter, that is to say, from moral restraint. He, endowed with this noble aggregate of morality, experiences internally a blameless happiness. Thus, Kassapa, is a monk accomplished in morality. This, Kassapa, is the accomplishment in morality... etc. he enters and dwells in the first meditative absorption. This too is his accomplishment in mind... etc. the second meditative absorption, etc. the third meditative absorption... etc. he enters and dwells in the fourth meditative absorption. This too is his accomplishment in mind. This, Kassapa, is the accomplishment in mind.

"When the mind is thus concentrated... etc. he directs and inclines the mind towards knowledge and vision... etc. This too is his accomplishment in wisdom... etc. He understands: 'There is no more of this state of being'... etc. This too is his accomplishment in wisdom. This, Kassapa, is the accomplishment in wisdom.

"And, Kassapa, there is no other accomplishment in morality, accomplishment in mind, or accomplishment in wisdom that is more superior or more sublime than this accomplishment in morality, accomplishment in mind, and accomplishment in wisdom.

Discussion on the Lion's Roar

402. "There are, Kassapa, some ascetics and brahmins who advocate morality. They speak in many ways in praise of morality. As far as noble supreme morality is concerned, Kassapa, I do not perceive anyone equal to myself therein, let alone superior! Then indeed I am superior therein, that is to say, in higher morality.

"There are, Kassapa, some ascetics and brahmins who advocate austere asceticism and disgust for evil. They speak in many ways in praise of austere asceticism and disgust for evil. As far as noble supreme austere asceticism and disgust for evil is concerned, Kassapa, I do not perceive anyone equal to myself therein, let alone superior! Then indeed I am superior therein, that is to say, in higher disgust for evil.

"There are, Kassapa, some ascetics and brahmins who advocate wisdom. They speak in many ways in praise of wisdom. As far as noble supreme wisdom is concerned, Kassapa, I do not perceive anyone equal to myself therein, let alone superior! Then indeed I am superior therein, that is to say, in higher wisdom.

"There are, Kassapa, some ascetics and brahmins who advocate liberation. They speak in many ways in praise of liberation. As far as noble supreme liberation is concerned, Kassapa, I do not perceive anyone equal to myself therein, let alone superior! Then indeed I am superior therein, that is to say, in higher liberation.

403. "Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that heterodox wandering ascetics would speak thus - 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, but he roars it in an empty house, not in assemblies.' They - should be told 'Not so indeed.' 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, and he roars it in assemblies' - thus, Kassapa, should they be told.

"Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that heterodox wandering ascetics would speak thus - 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, and he roars it in assemblies, but he does not roar it confidently.' They - should be told 'Not so indeed.' 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, and he roars it in assemblies, and he roars it confidently' - thus, Kassapa, should they be told.

"Now, Kassapa, there is this possibility, that heterodox wandering ascetics would speak thus - 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, and he roars it in assemblies, and he roars it confidently, but they do not ask him questions... etc... and they ask him questions; but when asked, he does not answer their questions... etc... and when asked, he answers their questions; but he does not satisfy their minds with his explanation of the question... etc... and he satisfies their minds with his explanation of the question; but they do not think it worth listening to... etc... and they think it worth listening to; but having heard, they are not pleased... etc... and having heard, they are pleased; but they do not show signs of faith... etc... and they show signs of faith; but they do not proceed towards the truth... etc... and they proceed towards the truth; but those who have proceeded do not succeed.' They - should be told 'Not so indeed.' 'The ascetic Gotama roars a lion's roar, and he roars it in assemblies, and he roars it confidently, and they ask him questions, and when asked, he answers their questions, and he satisfies their minds with his explanation of the question, and they think it worth listening to, and having heard, they are pleased, and they show signs of faith, and they proceed towards the truth, and those who have proceeded succeed' - thus, Kassapa, should they be told.

Discussion on Probation for Sectarians

404. "On one occasion, Kassapa, I was dwelling at Rājagaha on the Vulture's Peak mountain. There a certain austere ascetic named Nigrodha asked me a question concerning the practice of loathing evil. When asked a question concerning the practice of loathing evil, I answered him. And when I had answered, he was delighted beyond measure." "Who indeed, venerable sir, having heard the Blessed One's Teaching, would not be delighted beyond measure? I too, venerable sir, having heard the Blessed One's Teaching, am delighted beyond measure. Excellent, venerable sir, excellent, venerable sir. Just as, venerable sir, one might set upright what had been overturned, or reveal what had been concealed, or point out the path to one who was lost, or hold up an oil lamp in the darkness - 'so that those with eyes might see forms'; just so, the Teaching has been made clear by the Blessed One in many ways. I, venerable sir, go for refuge to the Blessed One, to the Teaching, and to the Community of monks. May I, venerable sir, receive the going forth in the presence of the Blessed One, may I receive the full ordination."

405. "Kassapa, whoever was formerly of another sect and wishes for the going forth in this Teaching and discipline, wishes for full ordination, he undergoes probation for four months. After the elapse of four months, monks having won the favour give the going forth and give full ordination for monkhood. But here the difference among individuals is known to me." "If, venerable sir, those formerly of other sects wish for the going forth in this Teaching and discipline, wish for full ordination, and undergo probation for four months, and after the elapse of four months monks having won the favour give the going forth and give full ordination for monkhood, I will undergo probation for four years. After the elapse of four years, let monks having won the favour give the going forth and give full ordination for monkhood."

The naked ascetic Kassapa received the going forth in the presence of the Blessed One, he received full ordination. Not long after being fully ordained, the Venerable Kassapa, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, before long - that unsurpassed goal for the sake of which sons of good family rightly go forth from home into homelessness - the final goal of the holy life, in this very life, having realised by direct knowledge himself, having attained, he dwelt. 'Birth is eliminated, the holy life has been lived, what was to be done has been done, there is no more of this state of being' - he directly knew. And the Venerable Kassapa became one of the Worthy Ones.

The Discourse on the Great Lion's Roar is concluded as eighth.