8.
The Discourse on Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta
350.
Now at that time Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta had arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a great assembly of Jains.
The householder Citta heard -
"Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, it is said, has arrived at Macchikāsaṇḍa together with a great assembly of Jains."
Then the householder Citta together with several lay followers approached Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta;
having approached, he exchanged friendly greetings with Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta.
Having concluded the pleasant and memorable talk, he sat down to one side.
To the householder Citta seated to one side, Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta said this -
"Do you believe, householder, in the ascetic Gotama -
there is concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought, there is the cessation of applied and sustained thought?"
"I do not go by faith in the Blessed One in this matter, venerable sir. There is concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought, there is the cessation of applied and sustained thought." When this was said, Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, having looked up, said this - "Let the sirs see this, how upright this householder Citta is, how honest this householder Citta is, how non-deceitful this householder Citta is. One who might think to obstruct the wind with a net, might think to cease applied and sustained thought; one who might think to block the stream of the Ganges with his own fist, might think to cease applied and sustained thought."
"What do you think, venerable sir, which is more sublime - knowledge or faith?" "Knowledge indeed, householder, is more sublime than faith." "I, venerable sir, whenever I wish, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome mental states, enter and dwell in the first meditative absorption, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. I, venerable sir, whenever I wish, with the subsiding of applied and sustained thought, etc. enter and dwell in the second meditative absorption. I, venerable sir, whenever I wish, with the fading away of rapture, etc. enter and dwell in the third meditative absorption. I, venerable sir, whenever I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure, etc. enter and dwell in the fourth meditative absorption. Being one who thus knows, thus sees, why should I go by faith in any other ascetic or brahmin? There is concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought, there is the cessation of applied and sustained thought."
When this was said, Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, having looked towards his own assembly, said this - "Let the sirs see this, how crooked this householder Citta is, how fraudulent this householder Citta is, how deceitful this householder Citta is."
"Just now indeed, venerable sir, we understand your statement - 'thus we understand: let the sirs see this, how upright this householder Citta is, how honest this householder Citta is, how non-deceitful this householder Citta is.' And yet just now, venerable sir, we understand your statement - 'thus we understand: let the sirs see this, how crooked this householder Citta is, how fraudulent this householder Citta is, how deceitful this householder Citta is.' If, venerable sir, your former statement is true, your latter is wrong. But if, venerable sir, your former statement is wrong, your latter is true. Now, venerable sir, these ten reasonable questions come. When you understand their meaning, then you may refute me together with the assembly of Jains. One question, one synopsis, one explanation. Two questions, two synopses, two explanations. Three questions, three synopses, three explanations. Four questions, four synopses, four explanations. Five questions, five synopses, five explanations. Six questions, six synopses, six explanations. Seven questions, seven synopses, seven explanations. Eight questions, eight synopses, eight explanations. Nine questions, nine synopses, nine explanations. Ten questions, ten synopses, ten explanations." Then the householder Citta, having asked Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta these ten reasonable questions, rose from his seat and departed. The eighth.